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Subject: Does the RAN have a need for a Corvette?
hairy man    11/17/2008 6:31:29 PM
Does the RAN have a requirement for a Corvette type vessel? The one on the Austal website, which carries a helicopter and is equipped for ASW looks promising, although I would prefer it to be larger and better armed.
 
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gf0012-aust       11/22/2008 10:20:22 PM
The fundamental problem with policing the Straits is one of ROE's including hot pursuit.  The technology solutions already exist.
 
Political will and intent is the killer here.


 
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Aussiegunneragain    Herald   11/23/2008 5:11:02 AM
We don't need a WW2 sized threat to justify the sorts of ships that I am talking about. We just need one nation that we are having a disagreement over some islands to our north who happens to have 3 or 4 reasonably modern DE subs. We have a couple of those and all that they would have to do is to SAY that they are going to hit Aussie coastal shipping and they would tie up half the ships that we can currently deploy. We can't afford that so we need a cheaper, more numerous solution.
 
As for the plausibility of PAR's on Corvettes LM didn't design the SPY-1K not to work. I know that using it or a smaller CEAFAR on a Corvette would necessitate using smaller missiles, but I'd guess that that ESSM can tackle a brace of sub launched missiles coming at a convoy. Sea skimmers wouldn't be detected by radar much beyond the ESSM's range anyway so the shorter range probably wouldn't matter. Having a stealthy corvette wouldn't help in that situation either as the targets are the ships that it is escorting which have a RCS the size of a well, bulk freighter.
 
As for pirates there was an article in the Australian about those today. Apparently we have too small a merchant fleet to be too bothered by them. Also I'm pretty sure that most of the merchant ships routed to Australia don't pass through the worst areas like the Gulf of Aden or the Straits of Malacca. It isn't one of our defence priorities.
 
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HERALD1357       11/23/2008 5:59:13 AM

We don't need a WW2 sized threat to justify the sorts of ships that I am talking about. We just need one nation that we are having a disagreement over some islands to our north who happens to have 3 or 4 reasonably modern DE subs. We have a couple of those and all that they would have to do is to SAY that they are going to hit Aussie coastal shipping and they would tie up half the ships that we can currently deploy. We can't afford that so we need a cheaper, more numerous solution.

 

As for the plausibility of PAR's on Corvettes LM didn't design the SPY-1K not to work. I know that using it or a smaller CEAFAR on a Corvette would necessitate using smaller missiles, but I'd guess that that ESSM can tackle a brace of sub launched missiles coming at a convoy. Sea skimmers wouldn't be detected by radar much beyond the ESSM's range anyway so the shorter range probably wouldn't matter. Having a stealthy corvette wouldn't help in that situation either as the targets are the ships that it is escorting which have a RCS the size of a well, bulk freighter.

 

As for pirates there was an article in the Australian about those today. Apparently we have too small a merchant fleet to be too bothered by them. Also I'm pretty sure that most of the merchant ships routed to Australia don't pass through the worst areas like the Gulf of Aden or the Straits of Malacca. It isn't one of our defence priorities.

1. Fisheries protection and smuggling is.
2. ESSM is a fairly big and robust rocket. It actually outperforms ASTER.........significantly. it needs a fairly hefty radar to make full use of its potential. The rockets a small corvette might carry are more akin to RAM or Barak. 
3. I am of the opinion that an OPV that operates drones and a helo isd a significantly better vesserl for the money you spend than a overglorifed speedboat armed with SAMs and an auto-cannon for littoral warfare-however such an OPV misses the enture point of the unglamorousn low end role that navies have to perform daily. Navies are the world's equivalent of the police upon the water. Whether it is chasing illegal whalers and fishers in your waters, stopping smugglerrs trying to evade your customs, or just aiding a conked out freighter, you don't spend $1 B Aus or $1B US on a patrol and marine enforcement frigate with a stop the PLAN combat suite, when a $ 5 M steel tub with an auto cannon and an eager boarding party full of marines and sailors armed with automatic weapons is sufficient.   
 
Match the resources to the mission. I also always find it interesting and amusing that the RAN is historically pro-active instead of reactive to the bluster and threats Australia's neighbors made.
  
Herald

 
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gf0012-aust       11/23/2008 3:02:41 PM
I also always find it interesting and amusing that the RAN is historically pro-active instead of reactive to the bluster and threats Australia's neighbors made.
there's an extra irony in the fact that our two most vocal neighbours also ask RAN and AUSG for assistance on developing their Navies.  They want greenwater development/definition expertise, want some of our vessels - and want to buy our fleet logistics (software) solutions.
 
there's a message in there somewhere... :)
 
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Scooterboy    Hi long time reader first time poster   11/24/2008 2:46:06 AM
Hi guys, I know this is a little off the Corvette question, but along similar lines.I have always thought the Danish 'Absalon' class was an interesting design. Mix of command support, landing and transport, and I think fairly well armed. 5" gun up VLS with up too 36 ESSM, 2 CIWS, 6 .50 cals, 8-16 Harpoons, MU90 torps and can carry two NH 90 sized helo's, and/or I assume UAV's.
Pair one of these up with an AWD , pretty potent first response for anything serious local ( flare up in East Timor, cyclone/tsunamis response) and with a LPH with 6-8  F35B's a potent force.
 
Feel free to pick it apart, but would these with CEFAR/CEAMOUNT , and SPY-1F  , be a reasonable replacement for either ANZACS or Adelaide classes or even Manoora/Tobruk?

 
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Aussiegunneragain       11/25/2008 2:58:49 AM




We don't need a WW2 sized threat to justify the sorts of ships that I am talking about. We just need one nation that we are having a disagreement over some islands to our north who happens to have 3 or 4 reasonably modern DE subs. We have a couple of those and all that they would have to do is to SAY that they are going to hit Aussie coastal shipping and they would tie up half the ships that we can currently deploy. We can't afford that so we need a cheaper, more numerous solution.

As for the plausibility of PAR's on Corvettes LM didn't design the SPY-1K not to work. I know that using it or a smaller CEAFAR on a Corvette would necessitate using smaller missiles, but I'd guess that that ESSM can tackle a brace of sub launched missiles coming at a convoy. Sea skimmers wouldn't be detected by radar much beyond the ESSM's range anyway so the shorter range probably wouldn't matter. Having a stealthy corvette wouldn't help in that situation either as the targets are the ships that it is escorting which have a RCS the size of a well, bulk freighter.

As for pirates there was an article in the Australian about those today. Apparently we have too small a merchant fleet to be too bothered by them. Also I'm pretty sure that most of the merchant ships routed to Australia don't pass through the worst areas like the Gulf of Aden or the Straits of Malacca. It isn't one of our defence priorities.




1. Fisheries protection and smuggling is.
 
Our patrol boat fleet has that pretty much covered up north. OPV's like NZ has bought  might be useful for policing the Southern Ocean against toothfishermen and the like, but I'm not sure that the problem is big enough to justify it.
2. ESSM is a fairly big and robust rocket. It actually outperforms ASTER.........significantly. it needs a fairly hefty radar to make full use of its potential. The rockets a small corvette might carry are more akin to RAM or Barak. 
 
As I have already pointed out LM has already designed a corvette-sized AEGIS.  They didn't do it with RAM or Barak in mind. A 1500 tonne hull could easily handle a couple of 8 packs of ESSM, which would suffice for our purposes. The 1000 tonne Thai Ratanakosin Class Corvette carries the  24 Aspide which is Sparrow-based so it is well and truely do-able.  
Match the resources to the mission. I also always find it interesting and amusing that the RAN is historically pro-active instead of reactive to the bluster and threats Australia's neighbors made.
 
The RAN's most important mission is to be able to defend Australia's interests against credible threat's in the case of war. Being pro-active under those circumstances isn't just a quaint characteristic of RAN brass and the DOD, it is a good idea. It would take far longer for us to build a class of Corvettes that can undertake this sort of mission than it would for Indonesia to buy a dozen sub launched Exocets for their 209's and whatever sub-launched missile fits into the Kilo's tubes. Quite apart from that our Navy can't currently adequately defend itself against TNI's missile armed FAC in the littorals. So much for proactivity.


  


Herald






 
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Volkodav    From Navantia   11/25/2008 6:35:15 AM

Press here for details


 
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Volkodav    From Navantia   11/25/2008 6:36:20 AM

Press here for details


 
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Volkodav    From Navantia   11/25/2008 6:37:16 AM
link
 
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HERALD1357       11/25/2008 7:02:27 AM


We don't need a WW2 sized threat to justify the sorts of ships that I am talking about. We just need one nation that we are having a disagreement over some islands to our north who happens to have 3 or 4 reasonably modern DE subs. We have a couple of those and all that they would have to do is to SAY that they are going to hit Aussie coastal shipping and they would tie up half the ships that we can currently deploy. We can't afford that so we need a cheaper, more numerous solution.


As for the plausibility of PAR's on Corvettes LM didn't design the SPY-1K not to work. I know that using it or a smaller CEAFAR on a Corvette would necessitate using smaller missiles, but I'd guess that that ESSM can tackle a brace of sub launched missiles coming at a convoy. Sea skimmers wouldn't be detected by radar much beyond the ESSM's range anyway so the shorter range probably wouldn't matter. Having a stealthy corvette wouldn't help in that situation either as the targets are the ships that it is escorting which have a RCS the size of a well, bulk freighter.


As for pirates there was an article in the Australian about those today. Apparently we have too small a merchant fleet to be too bothered by them. Also I'm pretty sure that most of the merchant ships routed to Australia don't pass through the worst areas like the Gulf of Aden or the Straits of Malacca. It isn't one of our defence priorities.










1. Fisheries protection and smuggling is.



Our patrol boat fleet has that pretty much covered up north. OPV's like NZ has bought  might be useful for policing the Southern Ocean against toothfishermen and the like, but I'm not sure that the problem is big enough to justify it.

Counterargument-your OPVs are too short-enduranced and under-gunned to perform the mission described in your AO. You need the the blue water hull capability to operate as well as the enforcement tools..One of those tools is the helo and the boat party.

2. ESSM is a fairly big and robust rocket. It actually outperforms ASTER.........significantly. it needs a fairly hefty radar to make full use of its potential. The rockets a small corvette might carry are more akin to RAM or Barak. 


As I have already pointed out LM has already designed a corvette-sized AEGIS.  They didn't do it with RAM or Barak in mind. A 1500 tonne hull could easily handle a couple of 8 packs of ESSM, which would suffice for our purposes. The 1000 tonne Thai Ratanakosin Class Corvette carries the  24 Aspide which is Sparrow-based so it is well and truely do-able.  

Counterargument.

Aspide Mk1/Mk2

Specifications

Manafacturer

Selenia

Date Deployed

1987

Range

75 km

Ceiling

8000 m above the launch point

Speed

Mach 4 / 4680 km/h

Propulsion

One SNIA-Viscosa solid-propellant rocket motor

Guidance

Selenia monopulse semi-active radar homing

Warhead

72.75 lb ( 33 kg ) SNIA Difesa e Spazio blast/fragmentation
: doppler proximity- and direct action-fuzed

Launch Weight

485 lb ( 220 kg ) 230 kg

Length

12 ft, 1.67 in ( 3.70 m )  3.65 m

Diameter

8 in ( 203 mm ) 210 mm

Fin Span

3 ft, 3.4 in ( 1.00 m ) same

Capacity discovery radar

  20 Km

N. fire channels

  2

N. ready missiles to the launch

  12

Time reaction arranges

  11 sec

The maximum capacity

  10 Km

Minimal capacity

  750 m

The maximum quota

  3.5 Km approximately

Guidance system

  homing semiactive

Weight of the missile

  220 Kg approximately

maximum speed of the missile

  650 m/sec

Single-shot hit probability (SSKP)

  80%


ESSM:

Type Medium-range surface-to-air missile

Place of origin  United States

Service history In service February 2004 aboard USS Chafee[citation needed]

Production history Manufacturer Raytheon

Produced September 1998

Specifications

Weight 620 lb (280 kg)

Length 12 ft (3.66 m)

Diameter 10 in (254 mm)


Warhead 66 lb (39 kg) blast-fragmentation

Detonation mechanism Proximity fuze


Engine Mk 143 Mod 0 solid fuel rocket
Operational range 27+ nm (50+ km)

Speed Mach 4+

Guidance system Midcourse datalink
Terminal semi-active radar homing

Launch platform Mk 41 VLS (RIM-162A/B)
Mk 48 VLS (RIM-162C)
Mk 29 box launcher (RIM-162D)


Much bigger rocket is the ESSM-very much so at 18% by mass and 22% by volume. The ESSM 2 if it goes to the the 255 mm kill-body barrel will be 30% and 43% larger respectively. You are discussing a missile that right now outperforms a Standard I and if ot becomes fatter will approach an early Standard II in performance flyouts.


A corvette-sized radar even the LM one doesn't see far enough (4x) to exploit those rockets' flyouts. Even Aspide out-flys its radar coverage on some of its current platforms. There is such a thing as too much rocket for the radar to use


Match the resources to the mission. I also always find it interesting and amusing that the RAN is historically pro-active instead of reactive to the bluster and threats Australia's neighbors made.


The RAN's most important mission is to be able to defend Australia's interests against credible threat's in the case of war. Being pro-active under those circumstances isn't just a quaint characteristic of RAN brass and the DOD, it is a good idea. It would take far longer for us to build a class of Corvettes that can undertake this sort of mission than it would for Indonesia to buy a dozen sub launched Exocets for their 209's and whatever sub-launched missile fits into the Kilo's tubes. Quite apart from that our Navy can't currently adequately defend itself against TNI's missile armed FAC in the littorals. So much for proactivity.

Counterargument, you send Mister Aircraft (pick a type) with NAShM or some other anti-ship missile to pay the FACs a pro-active visit. Your standoff and systems integration is an order of magnitude greater than his as are your CM/CCM capabilities.

I'm not afraid of two or three diesel electric Russian boats or older 209s except as they can lay mines and torpedo the occasional freighter. The Kilo is also tech restricted to Russian sub launched AShMs Those are not very good. You can fox them. Heck Australia invents many of the CMs that the US uses to fox AShMs.

You need to not underestimate the importance oif EW at sea or in the air in this discussion. Its not the side with the biggest gun that wins anymore. Its the side with the best electronics.

Indonesia can't even begin to compete in that battlespace.
 
Herald

 
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Aussiegunneragain    Herald   11/26/2008 6:04:47 AM
Damn website just ditched my comprehensive answer so here is the simple one. Everything you just wrote is wrong or irrelevant except the bit about EW being important and the bit about FAC's being able to be destroyed from the air.
On the first point it obviously is but you don't rely on it. A spoofed missile can lock onto a new target (like a tanker your corvette is escorting) and destroy it. It happenned to the Atlantic Conveyer so there is no reason why some Aussie bulk freignter can't cop the same treatment. A hard kill is the most desirable outcome in in any instance you are facing an anti-ship missile, as the cost of failure is very high.
 
On the second point, of course FAC's can be destroyed from the air. The problem is that you can't rely on that because they may not be detected prior to firing, especially if they are operating inshore. Also ROE's may not allow us to fire first. Sure the FAC would probably be blown out of the water after attacking us, but that is cold comfort for everybody who dies on the ship that gets hit. That doesn't even start to account for the risk of shore based missiles which are far harder to detect.
 
On the rest Google young man Google and you will find the truth.
 
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Aussiegunneragain    Herald   11/26/2008 6:08:08 AM
One last point, you aren't scared of those subs because you are a net surfer and not a sailor. So am I but I look at it from the sailors shoes when I make those sorts of statements.
 
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HERALD1357       11/26/2008 7:47:22 AM

Damn website just ditched my comprehensive answer so here is the simple one. Everything you just wrote is wrong or irrelevant except the bit about EW being important and the bit about FAC's being able to be destroyed from the air.

That has happened to me. It just is. I know how frustrating it is.

On the first point it obviously is but you don't rely on it. A spoofed missile can lock onto a new target (like a tanker your corvette is escorting) and destroy it. It happened to the Atlantic Conveyer so there is no reason why some Aussie bulk freignter can't cop the same treatment. A hard kill is the most desirable outcome in in any instance you are facing an anti-ship missile, as the cost of failure is very high.

Atlantic Conveyer had no supporting countermeasures aboard her, AG much like that Egyptian freighter didn't have that was nailed by that Iranian CS-801, a while back when the INS Hanit was hit in  what was supposed to be a two missile hi-lo attack.The Hanit in that attack had no countermeasures working either. As for the Conveyer, the incident was decades ago. The CM has markedly improved.
 
On the second point, of course FAC's can be destroyed from the air. The problem is that you can't rely on that because they may not be detected prior to firing, especially if they are operating inshore. Also ROE's may not allow us to fire first. Sure the FAC would probably be blown out of the water after attacking us, but that is cold comfort for everybody who dies on the ship that gets hit. That doesn't even start to account for the risk of shore based missiles which are far harder to detect.

You might be missing what I say, AG.  I think you might exaggerate the threat a wee bit. I don't dismiss it, but it isn't as extreme as many fiction writers out there make it out to be. Actual real world data suggests that one in five or more typical Western missiles will definitely hit against Russian style countermeasures, which are the best enemy CM we face. Going the other way it may be one in ten surface ship launched .Russian style missiles and close to ZERO sub-launched ones in a salvo without external guidance that could hit us.. If a shore based network with the best the Chinese have to offer Iran couldn't even coordinate a simple two missile hi=lo attack on a clay pigeon like the Hanit under ideal field conditions? I may not know much, but I do know a little something about this, AG.    

On the rest Google young man Google and you will find the truth.
I am not a young man. I've been in this biz as a contractor and worker for over twenty years, AG-mainly the electronics end of it but also a little rocketry here and there.

Herald
 
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HERALD1357       11/26/2008 8:08:28 AM

One last point, you aren't scared of those subs because you are a net surfer and not a sailor. So am I but I look at it from the sailors shoes when I make those sorts of statements.
I am deathly afraid of torpedoes-especially Italian, British, and AMERICAN ones. I am not afraid of submarine launched cruise missiles-especially Russian ones. Those are bearing only launched and are only good against undefended, as in no countermeasures at all, sitting duck ships as described above.
 
Will one hit? Sure if it is command update guided . Out of how big a salvo? Four? Twenty? How long will the telemetry6 illumination source live? Not long if friendly air or countermeasures works. A Bear or an H-6 with its search radar active has to get close enough to see both the cruise missiles and the target set to guide the merge. It pops up to give a final telemetry update to the flock it shepherds toward the target. It turns on its radar to identify the tracks in the battlespace and then raqdios the data strweam to iots flock? Within range of a STANDARD or an ESSM? Not  bloody likely-even though they have to get in that close to maqke their tactics work. As for the radar escort cruise missiles employed by the Russians as a means to provide some crude guidance to a salvo they blind fired without radar coverage or off missile telemetry targeting updating? Mimic.
 
Spoofing is a bit easier and more successful than shootdown. You only light up and shoot when you have absolutely no choice as when you are painted or seen. 
 
 Herald
 
   
       

 
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Aussiegunneragain    Herald   11/27/2008 6:22:17 AM
All I have to say is that your "she'll be right mate" attitude to anti-ship missiles is belied by the fact that world navies are spending an absolute fortune on PAR based anti-air defences at present. If they thought that they could rely exclusively on CM's then the market for AEGIS and like systems wouldn't exist. The reality is that while only one in four anti-ship missiles has ever hit its target the consequences of a hit are so high that the expense of the defences is justified. I'm sorry but I'm more impressed by those realities than I am by the unverified claims of an anonymous web surfer.
 
Incidentally, anti ship missiles don't need a mid-course update to accurately find their targets over normal ranges for sea skimmers. The original Exocet which is over 30 years old now and relied on an INS to get it withing homing distance could be fired accurately based on recieving an initial firing solution from the linked radar alone. The Argentinans even managed to fire an MM-38 off the back of a jury-rigged truck and hit a British destroyer, presumably after it was programmed using visually acquired co-ordinates.
 
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