I then started to wonder if this may have come up in the White Paper deliberations.

AFAIK been flagged a number of times, incl for the WP.

 

The specwarries can't continue to maintain the tempo with existing operational and "political" demands.

 

Demonstrating my ignorance here but what does AFAIK mean?

Back onto topic I like RAVEN's idea of reroling or CAV from Divisional Rec to a Mounted Rifle or Fighting CAV role.  This would effectively give 1 and 7 Bde's a highly capable organic armoured infantry (wheeled) element to supplement their pair of rifle Btn's that would still be able to provide overwatch, force protection and rec as required.

 

Taking it a step further 3/4 CAV could take on a similar role for 3 Bde in addition to it's current APC role.  Even better it could be split with 3 CAV staying with 3 Bde while 4 CAV could be assigned to the new special forces Brigade as a specialised or "elite" Light CAV formation.

 

4 CAV (Light) assigned to a special forces brigade could fill a specialised land role while 3 RAR does air and 4 RAR sea. 

 

Thoughs?

AFAIK:-

As Far As I Know

Cheers,

Mac

 

Converting 3 RAR in  -  Special Operations ( Airborne)-[elite, rapidly deployable] - AKA - US Rangers / UK  (1 Para) ... would seem like a wise decision, given the operational tempo of of Special Operations in recent years...

 

6 RAR - Converted into the 3rd Mechanized Battalion

 

8/9 RAR - Spilt up and expanded into 8th RAR  and 9th RAR - Motorised Infantry ( to fill the gap left by 6 RAR)

 

---------

3 RAR - Airborne / Special Operations ( Rapid Deployment )

4 RAR - Commando ( Direct Action)

SAS +

 

 

 

 

if you really want to shake things up you could make 1st Commando Regiment into 100% full time - with Marine!!! Tasking

- almost SBS or Navy Seal :  like

 

 

3 RAR - Airborne / Special Operations ( Rapid Deployment )

So in summary ( and with correct spelling )

 

 

 3 RAR - Airborne / Special Operations (Rapid Deployment) - NORTH

 SASR (Long range Reconnaissance/Black Operations/Strategic Reconnaissance) - WEST

 

 

Sorry guys, but I doubt ADF is big enough to raise another special operations regiment/battalion call it what you will.

 

Arguing that you can just "convert" 3RAR into a Special Operations unit, means you would significantly diminish the capability of our Special Operations forces. 

 

3RAR is NO different to any other battalion in the Australian Army. If you want to think about such asinine things as which battalion is "best", 6RAR won the Duke Of Gloucester cup this year, and this is the closest we have to testing "which battalion is best"...

 

It has one different skill set, namely it's parachute qualification. Otherwise it's skillsets are no different. Why not chose 5 or 7 RAR? They've got unique skill sets too.

 

The problem is that most of the Digs in 3RAR won't be capable of meeting the standards for SOCOMD. As with 4RAR, most of the infantry grunts that were in that particular battalion when it was "converted" were transferred to other units, shortly thereafter. They weren't up to the challenge of Specwarrie operations.

 

The only way to do it, would be a sustained investment over many years, starting with "splitting" a commando company off 4RAR and gradually building up both units. The direct entry scheme would probably have to be introduced, despite the cost and lack of overall results, as even the Enhanced Land Force, would be flat out supporting 3x full time Special Operations units.

 

 

 

 

 

I understand your points, however no one is dimishing the capability of our existing special forces units!!! while the term has been used " Special Operations" ... there may be some misconceptions...

 

perhaps I should of said " Elite rapidly deployable" forces capable of limited Special operations. ( they are a different tier of Special Forces )

 

Are rangers trained to the standard as Delta force or Para's the same same standard as SAS ...  ?   

 

 

I was under the impression that 4 RAR was reformed / split from 2/4 RAR,  with the original cadre and line personnel being specifically recruited into 4 RAR serve as Commando's.

 

I remember hearing that one of the seven task forces planned under Army 21 was intended to be SF, which is why a Commando Btn was formed in the first place.

 

4 RAR was converted to Light Infantry for service in East Timor, I assume through being brought up to strength with regular Infantry and former ready reservists.  Once Timor was over the extra personnel would have been rotated out with the Btn returning to their intended commando role.

While it is true that 3 RAR couldn't be reroled SF over night and that many of its current members may not make the grade it doesn't change the fact that our current specwarries are being worked into the ground and converting an existing unit, especially one with 3 RAR's history, would be quicker than starting from scratch.  Considering the recent media coverage on the dissatisfaction of many of our infantry over being left out of combat ops and the fact that more diggs are needed to reform 8/9 RAR there should be no shortage of suitable troops to man "3 RAR Commando" as well as plenty of spare billets for ex 3 RAR guys who can't or don't want to be commandos. 

There's zero chance of 3 RAR becoming another SOCOMD unit. They're not even really para anymore anyway - you could probably count the number of current para-qualled diggers on one hand. Besides, considering the problems that 3 RAR have had over the years, they are the last battalion you would want to promote to SOCOMD. If you want more commandos, simply add a company or two to 4 RAR and change the name.

 

If you want to ease the burdon on the current spec-warries, you could start by giving them less random tasks that others can do more effectively. For instance, there is no reason why we need two TAGs in an army as small as ours. The chance of even one being called out is tiny - having two is a tremendous waste of resources. Let the AFP take up the domestic CT slack, and have one TAG organised outside of 4RAR/SASR but working directly for SOCOMD for the rest. It would also help if we stopped giving random tasks like CPP for dignatories abroad to the chicken stanglers. There is no reason the MPs or even ADGies can't do the vast majority of those tasks to free up bayonets for ops. I do know 4RAR have taken some of those taskings off the SASR, but you could still go further.

 

Regarding cavalry, in the corp conference this year it was the consensus that in the next couple of years that 3 Bde would receive a squadron of ASLAVs of their own. Whether they go to B3/4, or a squadron of, say, 2/14 is based in Townsville wasn't decided (it would be a government decision anyway). That would mean the cav sodiers manning the Bushmaters in Townsville could remain current on the ASLAV, and support their own ASLAV deployments as part of the Brigade rotation plan. B3/4 was supposed to provide the crews for MRTF2 and SECDET XV, but in the end it was given to 2 Cav again because B3/4 simply don't have any ASLAVs to train with, which pissed the scorpions off no end. It will be interesting to see what happens.

 

2/4RAR was delinked in the mid 90's. Both were (2RAR of course remains) light infantry battalions based in Townsville.

 

In the late 90's the then Howard Government made the decision to re-role 4RAR as a Commando battalion. 

 

 

The "line digs" as you call them were used in the Commando role at that point, but it was the "boys from the West" who were assigned to develop the Commando capability that generated the capability from scratch. The line infantry guys mostly didn't pass SFET and new recruits gradually filled out the capability.

 

It should be remembered that the authorised strength of 4RAR (Cmdo) when it was first re-roled was one single Commando Company. How many ex "line" digs do you reckon were in that Coy group? Very few I'd suggest. A close mate of mine was in 1 Commando Regt at that time and quite a few of their operators were "filling in" if you like in 4RAR, but even they were "making up the numbers" whilst the full time guys were doing their various courses.

 

It was built up over years with back to back SFET and basic Commando Operator courses. It was expanded to 2 Commando Coy's and eventually 3, plus a TAG (though TAG-E still has a HIGH proportion of SASR operators within it's ranks, whilst TAG-W is almost exclusively SASR operators), which is 4RAR (Cmdo) current strength. It has taken around 9 years to reach that point however.

 

You are quite correct. 4RAR (Cmdo) was re-roled for a brief period and did a tour in East Timor. It was fleshed out with "non-Commando" operators, whilst it performed a light infantry role. Upon it's return however, it has seriously kicked into gear as a dedicated Special Operations unit and I see little likelihood it will ever revert to a light infantry role.

  

As for another battalion converting, I don't see it happening. The recruits HAVE to come from somewhere and I don't see our Army expanding at the same exponential rate you'd like to see our special warfare units do so. Our units are good because of their standards.

 

Lowering them isn't going to increase capability. Using a battalion, whether it's 3RAR or whichever in some sort of pseudo-ranger / special forces role, is only going to dilute our infantry capability.

  

We do NOT have the luxury (nor the funding any longer) to cover all these specialist roles that larger Armies maintain.

 

I also don't see where or WHY such a unit is necessary for Australia.

 

The Commandos support SASR with larger (in terms of numbers) and heavier (in terms of firepower) special forces capability.The IRR and special forces Signals and 5 Aviation Regiment and RAAF and RAN elements provide technical support, manoeuvre and recovery support. It is (IMHO) an extremely well-balanced force that is proving highly capable, from what we know of their operations.

 

I'd agree with Raven that 2x TAG's is too many. I'd suggest relieving SASR of the TAG-W and concentrating soley on TAG-E, with SASR operators seconded to TAG-E, as they are now anyway. 

 

I wouldn't leave the AFP in charge of Domestic CT capability however.( I wouldn't even leave them in charge of arranging a trip to a brothel with a fistful of $50's either, but that's another story). State Police have the capability needed to handle pretty much anything we are likely to see, CT wise and a single East Coast TAG would more than amply support that.  

 

Back to special forces however, if you need to go larger again than SASR or the existing Commando capability, it's time the regular infantry were introduced into the theatre... 

 

More deployable, battle groups, rather than niche capabilities is the way to go in my humble opinion.

 

 

 

 

Quite simply the Govt won't spend the money, an airborne capability is expensive to maintain and entails long term costs.

The capability is critical for our region, right now for example, we'd have a great deal of difficulty covering our commitments and seizing a local island airhead (to extract threatened Aussie nationals for example), but its not cheap.

 

Even if available, Commandoes are not trained for the airborne role and training them for it would just detract from their own role.

Ah, actually the commandos are quite well trained for that. That is their job afterall. The plan is 4RAR will take over the theatre entry role from 3RAR in ~2010, before 3RAR move to Townsville (in reality 4RAR would already be the only choice). The difference between 3RAR conducting a theatre entry and 3RAR doing the same is that 3RAR could only do it by jumping out of an aeroplane. 4RAR could do it that way too, or by helicoper from amphibious ship or by boat from the same.

Maintaining a current para capability in a regular infantry battalion is incredibly wasteful, especially when they are required to rotate through normal infantry deployments as well. It's not just our Army either - very few of the British Para Regt are actually para qualled - same deal with the US 82nd Airborne. It is very hard to do your 5 jumps a year when you are deployed to Iraq/Afghanistan afterall.

Er, try telling that to the guys from 4RAR (Cdo) manning the Airborne Company Group role, whilst 3RAR was

overseas... :)

 

 A single company group capable of air dropping into an AO is all ADF has ever maintained. The role was shared around in 3RAR, amongst the various companies, but visions of an entire battalion dropping from the sky are exactly that. Visions. Not reality...

 

4RAR now has the responsibility of maintaining the company group, or soon will, when 3RAR formerly relinquishes the airborne role. 

 

It's win win for Army. 4RAR has to conduct the training to do company level parachute insertions, by nature of it's role anyway... 

 

ADF has never had the capability to airdrop an entire battalion (group actually, as A Battery is technically Airborne too...) and it's never been a requirement of Government for ADF to provide such a capability anyway.

 

Therefore Army gets another FULL battalion, which doesn't have up to 100 staff a year out of action with broken limbs and saves cash by not conducting the expensive airborne training anymore...

 

Let SOCOMD and it's enormous budget take care of it... :)

  

Next proposal? :)

 

Totally agree!

 

Q: Next proposal......?

 

A: Let's drop the pretence of the regular battalion nomenclature for 4 RAR and rename them 1st Battalion, Commando Regt (with the reserves becoming 2nd Battalion).

 

4RAR can then be raised as reg. infantry in the Army 2020 plans......I am looking for a unit for the third (in my plans) mech battalion anyway (to provide 3 mech battlegroups) - and 8/9 RAR is already split and being used to create my 3 motorised battalions in 7 Bde, in the grand scheme to complement my 1,2 and 3 RAR that are in my 3 Bde. All I need then is 3/4 Cav to be constituted as a full regiment and I am happy! (even more so if we end up with 36 Tigers and 18 Chinooks - can anyone say mixed aviation battalion? Enough to rotate a squadron with 12 NH90s, one with 12 Tigers and one with 6 Chinooks 3 times). 

 

Brett.