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Subject: Chances of a second batch of AWD's
Volkodav    8/19/2008 8:02:19 AM
The F-100 was selected as the lower risk more affordable option and the Alliance is doing its best to discourage specification creap which should help deliver the project on time and within budget.
The is ongoing talk of a fouth AWD being ordered which would take the build out to 2019, however I wonder if we would be better off taking the lessons learnt and the experience gained on the first three and tailor an improved F-100 specifically to our evolving needs. Aim to commission the first batch 2 AWD in 2020 to replace the last FFG with the next two to follow on in 2022 and 2024 to replace the first pair of ANZACS.
A third batch based on the service experience of the batch 1 ships could then begin to enter service from 2027 or so to replace three more ANZACS.
 
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Volkodav       5/16/2009 8:59:01 AM

-Before this boorish American responds, let me preface this by saying I served on Aegis ships.

 

Top of my list would be to go all electric, that is get rid of the gearing and shafts and have the GT's and Diesels functioning solely as generators with propulsion from electric motors.  The Darings use it and the DDX (both of them) as well as the CVF will use it.

-I think you'd be better off fitting a bulbous bow. The purpose behind the all electric is to power energy-based weapons. I think it is over-hyped, IMO. You have a good design with CODAG; we, the US should have such a frigate. Don't mess with it. I certainly wouldn't base my decisions on what DDG-1000 is or has done.


 

A stretch providing space and weight for an increase in the size of the VLS, possibly a 155mm inplace of the Mk45, definitely a second helo.  Maybe a phased array director to replace the legacy mechanical variety.



-Size of the VLS is probably over-hyped as well. The only reason to add is if you want to have Tomahawk. Then the question becomes how many do you want to carry and why? Let's think about this 48 missiles. How many SM-2s are you going to carry? 20? That leaves 28 cells. Figure 8 for VLA. That leaves 20. If you want to carry as many ESSMs as SMs then you still have 15 cells free for Tomahawk. Are you going to need more?  If you're going to need more, you'll need more ships anyway. More missiles isn't necessarily bad, but will you use them?


 

The 155mm is an answer to a question not asked, IMO. There is a reason ~5" has evolved as a primary cannon for naval guns. They have to be a jack of all trades. 127mm/5" does that better than most.


 

As for the directors, why would you replace them with phased arrays? Phased arrays come with weight penalties. Weight high is bad. IMO, it's better to get active missiles. Perhaps an AIM-120 seeker mated to a RIM-162?





 

Facility to operate a variety of autominous unmanned vehicles, definitely to extend their sensor range but possibly to increase their strike range and / or to provide operational protection in port or close waters.

-This is a must, IMO. Leave the strike capability to the missiles carried, but extend your sensor range. Surface ships are prisoners of the horizon. They always have been. The best way to "break out" of prison is by airborne sensors.


 

Reprofiling the superstructure for greater stealth.

-The question becomes, how much do you have now, and how much more is needed? Are you using stealth to prevent targeting or are you using it to spoof seekers? Or are you using it to help out NULKA? I think your design does the first and the third very well already. I'm not sure you'll get to the point where you can effectively do the second without going radical, like DDG-1000, again not necessarily the example you want to follow.


 
Been a while since I started this thread and quite a few things have changed but I should clarify some of my suggestions for the now irrelevant batch II AWD's. All electric propusion is finding favour in civil and military applications due to its advantages reliability, maintainability, fuel effeciency and lower cost of ownership. While providing additional power for future energy based weapons is another advantage there are far greater near term benifits that can be derived from replacing most if not all hydraulics with electric actuation etc.
 
Many serving members of the RAN have a stated preference for the 64 cells of the losing design to the 48 cells of the F-100. The governments recent anouncement of their desire to deploy SM-6 and a TLCM type on the AWD's in addition to SM-2 and ESSM suggests that a larger VLS would have been useful.
 
As for a phased array director, I was thinking of the CEAMOUNT system being trialed for the ANZAC class frigates at the moment. I am no expert on radars but this type seems to offer some definate advantages. 
 
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Aussie Diggermark 2       5/16/2009 9:12:04 AM

 It seems to me that almost everyone has failed to see the full picture here. Apart from one or two comments, no one has really said what is lacking in the Rudd Governments White Paper. But let's not forget that Australia's defence needs have been neglected badly by successive governments over the last 34 years, essentially since the end of the Veitnam War. The first major blunder was  to not replace HMAS Melbourne when she was decommissioned, yes the opportunity was there to purchase one of the British ships, but the Falklands campaign ended that. The list of mistakes goes on and on, Seasprites, inadequate numbers of F18's and so on. But now there is a window of opportunity to balance out those past errors and protect Australia's future. Three AWD's will not suffice; four is the needed requirement at the very least, but six would be ideal. As we are getting two LPH's, the four AWD number is critical. A ro-ro platform is a good idea in essence, but strategically, one could be leased commercially at any time. More importantly for the Australian fleet, is a dedicated fixed wing carrier, of at least 35,000 tonne class; carrying F35b's, Hawkeye's and S70's. The twelve subs is a good number, but the propulsion system needs to be from this century, not the last. Lastly, personel numbers have to raised to at least 16,000 full time members, to reflect an effeciant fleet status, and Australia should have it's own force of Marines as part of the Navy, a minimum requirement would be around five to eight thousand.

 The Army seems to have been given a reasonable deal, but I believe another order of Abrams tank should be placed, as well as additional Tiger choppers.

 The Air Force though is another matter. The extra Herc's and a replacement for the old Caribou is sound, but another four C17's should be ordered to increase battlefield lift capability. The hundred F35's will be, just alright, but as everyone has said, they are not a replacement for the 'Pig'. At the very least, pressure should applied on the U.S to release for foreign sale the F22 Raptor, thirty or so of those would go a reasonable way as a F111 replacement.

 I welcome further comment.

 

Ray. Ex RAN


A few issues. 
 
1. I agree 4x AWD's should be the minimum number of "destroyers" we should operate. As stated earlier, I believe the "short" ESSM launch system for ESSM should be added to the AWD's so that the strike length vertical launch cell capacity we have, can be maximised (ie: TLAM, SM-2/6 and if necessary SM-3 can be used) and thereby the capability of the "AWDs" can truly be maximised.
 
2. I have significant reservations about the number of subs, v surface combatants in your and other structures. 12x subs would be fine, but skimmers do the majority of Navy's actual operational deployments. There was absolutely no justification in the White Paper for such a high number of subs and there is no concrete plan that shows any real sign of delivering the increased recruiting and retention we need to man our existing fleet, let alone one that is doubled in size. Personally I think RAN should be capable of operating equal sized and capability level forces off both west and east coasts of Australia simultaneously and support same at sea and rotate it's forces with like replacements.
 
Therefore IMHO:
 
1. A 4th AWD should be acquired.
 
2. HMAS success should be replaced with 2x new ships able to provide a similar but enhanced capability to that which Success can.
 
3. HMAS Sirius should be supplemented with an additional vessel of the same level of capability.
 
4. A 3rd LHD should be acquired, to allow 2x LHD's to be at sea, the majority of the time.
 
As to subs, Navy is authorised and funded for 660 odd submariner positions within it's current fleet, yet can only manage to fill about 420 of these positions. With positions numbers of at least 1000 being the likely requirement for this new fleet, I'd like to see improved manning for the current fleet sustained for MANY years, before additional hulls are ordered, to expand the fleet. It doesn't matter what they are propelled by or armed with, if they are tied up at the dock, for lack of staff...
 
3. An aircraft carrier. In theory, the idea is fine. In practice, I can't see how we could, A) afford it, B) man it. It isn't only RAN sub force that is hurting for manning, but Navy as a whole. It is consistently doing the worse out of the 3 services for it's manning requirements and the cost of such a vessel, it's air-group and it's support costs would be horrendous. I see no way that it could be afforded without a massive increase in ADF funding AND without a serious unbalancing of ADF capability. I'd rather a 3rd LHD and concentrate air control on AWD and future frigates AAW capability, in concert with RAAF and Army capabilities.
 
4. Marine infantry force. Why would we have 5000 - 8000 marines, but only 2x LHD's which can only carry a maximum of 1000 troops, each? We couldn't deploy them any more easily then we can with our existing infantry forces...
 
On top of which, how are we supposed to fund this enormous (by Australian standards) force? The Enhanced Land Force (ELF) project for Army is delivering 2x extra full time infantry battalions (7 RAR and 8/9 RAR). These 2 battalions (1600 positions) plus their support is costing $10 Billion, within an existing force.
 
Your proposal would create roughly 4 - 6 extra battalions, that have to be created within Navy from scratch and based on ELF costs alone,  would cost anywhere between $20b and $30 Billion dollars, not even counting the additional vessels and helos that would be required to transport such a force... It doesn't seem overly realistic to me...
 
5. Army, I think has been truly shafted by the White Paper. It's artillery replacement project has been maintained, but the least capable option chosen. Serious UAV discussion is non-existant, operational MRH-90 helos to be deployed by Army have been reduced, continuing GBAD capability gaps seem to be maintained, except the politically mandated, but operationally limited C-RAM capability has been added and there is no additional capability for army, beyond what has already been planned for years ( - ELF and "hardened/networked army"). C-RAM has been added because a few media outlets have been bleating about the lack of it. Now it seems likely that hundreds of millions will be spent on acquiring a land based system for a threat that doesn't truly exist as far as we are concerned.
 
We'd be better off investing in superior combat engineering capabilities, to allow us to create more extensive passive defences for our bases and better mobile air defence capability for our "combined arms battlegroups" IMHO. The C-RAM capability, even if one can be found that provides an adequate and usable capability against C-RAM threats, will never protect mobile forces, will not provide a medium or long ranged GBAD capability for ADF (which has lacked one for more than 20 years), will not provide any sort of Terminal BMD capability (unlike for instance Patriot PAC-3 MSE, MEADS, Spyder or Barak 8)  and can not be used to "kill 2 birds with one stone" as something like SLAMRAAM / HIMARS can (MLRS rocket and mobile short / medium ranged SAM system) do.
 
6. RAAF. RAAF hasn't done particularly well out of WP either, IMHO. Everything it is "getting" was already planned by the previous Government, except the P-8A and GH orders are likely reduced.  RAAF may be planned on using P-8A differently to AP-3C Orion, but they can't be everywhere. Personally I think 12x is the minimum number we should be considering with 8-12 Global Hawks to supplement them.
 
If the submarine threat IS as large as Government suggests, then improving our airborne and underwater detection capability (rather than the simplistic "more subs" approach) with a less ambitious sub fleet increase, (8x max) seems the way to go, to my unprofessional mind...
 
Reducing MPA and Naval helo fleets (over what was planned with Seasprog) and merely maintaining the surface fleet numbers hardly seems to confirm that Government is particularly concerned about the threat Australia faces to our SLOC...
 
Building a few ships, providing a bit more work for Australian industry, putting off spending any serious cash for more than 10 years and hopefully attracting more votes with a couple of pie in the sky capability aspirations seems more like it... 
 
 

 
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Aussie Diggermark 2       5/16/2009 9:19:54 AM

Many serving members of the RAN have a stated preference for the 64 cells of the losing design to the 48 cells of the F-100. The governments recent anouncement of their desire to deploy SM-6 and a TLCM type on the AWD's in addition to SM-2 and ESSM suggests that a larger VLS would have been useful.
Mk 41 VLS is not the ONLY system capable of launching ESSM.
 
It should be quite possible to fit SDSS launchers to the AWD's to carry up to 64x ESSM missiles without using a single Mk 41 VLS cell. 
 
With the carriage of 32x SM-2/SM-6, each AWD would then have 16x strike length VLS cells for TLAM, SM-3 or additional SM-2/6 missiles, depending on the required task at hand.

Even without the SDSS, the 48x VLS capability is a fearsome load compared to what we HAVE currently in RAN, especially given the AWD's ability to actually EMPLOY such a loadout... 
 
 

 
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benellim4       5/16/2009 10:21:13 AM
Been a while since I started this thread and quite a few things have changed but I should clarify some of my suggestions for the now irrelevant batch II AWD's. All electric propusion is finding favour in civil and military applications due to its advantages reliability, maintainability, fuel effeciency and lower cost of ownership. While providing additional power for future energy based weapons is another advantage there are far greater near term benifits that can be derived from replacing most if not all hydraulics with electric actuation etc.
-The problem is one of actually going into battle with it and the cost of modifying an existing design. At what cost would you modify the design. Then you face the challenge of specialized training for the operators and maintainers for what? Less than four hulls? If you're going to go the way of electric propulsion you need to do it in more than one batch of ships. On the other hand, you can get a lot of fuel efficiency by adopting a bulbous bow with none of the disadvantages to training and redesign. 
 
Many serving members of the RAN have a stated preference for the 64 cells of the losing design to the 48 cells of the F-100. The governments recent anouncement of their desire to deploy SM-6 and a TLCM type on the AWD's in addition to SM-2 and ESSM suggests that a larger VLS would have been useful.
-Why would you employ SM-2 and SM-6? The only time you'd need to is during the transition making the AWD's SM-6 capable, and even then you wouldn't need to carry both on one ship. I recommend reading Fleet Tactics by Captain Hughs. The USN carries far too many missiles per platform, but you won't convince your average USN sailor that they have too many missiles either.
 
As for a phased array director, I was thinking of the CEAMOUNT system being trialed for the ANZAC class frigates at the moment. I am no expert on radars but this type seems to offer some definate advantages.
-Advantages over what? Over a missile that guides itself? Even phased array directors have a limited number of missiles they can control in the terminal phase.  A ship employing an active missile doesn't suffer that disadvantage.  Meanwhile, another phased array radar high up in the superstructure, and it has to be high up to be useful, nets stability disadvantages. 
 
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benellim4       5/16/2009 10:23:45 AM
It should be quite possible to fit SDSS launchers to the AWD's to carry up to 64x ESSM missiles without using a single Mk 41 VLS cell. 
-I'm going to profess my ignorance. What are SSDS launchers? The Mk29 launcher the USN uses with its SSDS Mk2 ships? For a minute I thought you were referring to the launcher on the ANZACs, but that's a Mk41 Mod 5. So what is an SSDS launcher? 
Thanks.
 
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Aussie Diggermark 2       5/16/2009 10:41:11 AM

-The problem is one of actually going into battle with it and the cost of modifying an existing design. At what cost would you modify the design. Then you face the challenge of specialized training for the operators and maintainers for what? Less than four hulls? If you're going to go the way of electric propulsion you need to do it in more than one batch of ships. On the other hand, you can get a lot of fuel efficiency by adopting a bulbous bow with none of the disadvantages to training and redesign. 

-Why would you employ SM-2 and SM-6? The only time you'd need to is during the transition making the AWD's SM-6 capable, and even then you wouldn't need to carry both on one ship. I recommend reading Fleet Tactics by Captain Hughs. The USN carries far too many missiles per platform, but you won't convince your average USN sailor that they have too many missiles eithe

-Advantages over what? Over a missile that guides itself? Even phased array directors have a limited number of missiles they can control in the terminal phase.  A ship employing an active missile doesn't suffer that disadvantage.  Meanwhile, another phased array radar high up in the superstructure, and it has to be high up to be useful, nets stability disadvantages. 


1. RAN will already have the SM-2 in it's inventory and it would be wasteful not to use them.
 
2. There is apparently some concern with SM-6 and it's usefulness against aircraft with towed active decoys and those with VLO radar cross sections and hence the "old" command guidance techniques used on SM-2 are considered useful enough to retain in-service.
 
As to the "not enough missiles can be controlled" argument. That is largely a 'phallacy' (a spelling I created myself) of the "pro-missile barrage - Russia strong" Internet types, as I understand things because:

A). SM-2/ESSM do NOT require radar illumination for the entire duration of their flights.
 
B) Most AEGIS equipped ships mount multiple fire control radar directors. Whilst they are mounted relatively high on the superstructure, I don't think there has ever been anything particularly concerning with the F-100 series meta-centre and centre of gravity. On top of which, this also assumes that only the ship that fires the SM-2/ESSM, can control it. CEC wouldn't exist if THAT were the case...
 
C) Software solutions exist that allow existing fire control directors to handle "multiple channels of fire" each.
 
 
 
 
 
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Aussie Diggermark 2       5/16/2009 11:01:30 AM

It should be quite
possible to fit SDSS launchers to the AWD's to carry up to 64x ESSM
missiles without using a single Mk 41 VLS cell. 

-I'm going to profess my ignorance. What are SSDS launchers? The Mk29 launcher the USN uses with its SSDS Mk2 ships? For a minute I thought you were referring to the launcher on the ANZACs, but that's a Mk41 Mod 5. So what is an SSDS launcher? 

Thanks.


I could be using an old name, but I am referring to the Mk 41 VLS "self defense system", which is the "single deck" length version of the Mk 41 launch system.
 
Abe Gubler, has a diagram around the place of an AWD with 2x 8 cell SDSS VLS installed on the F-105 + AWD variant, with one on the port side and one on the starboard side of the hull, at the rear of the vessel, near where the superstructure ends, showing possible placement locations. 
 
Suggestions are that these would add somewhere between 40 and 50 tons to the weight of the vessel, including the appropriate modifications to ensure deck integrity etc, which will be well within the 750t growth margin of the hull.
 
Obviously, significant studies would be required to determine whether this idea is A) technically feasible and B) cost effective, but it seems a possible way of maximising the capability of the design and reducing the impact of the "only 48x" strike length VLS launcher, at the front of the boat. 


 
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benellim4       5/16/2009 11:39:08 AM
1. RAN will already have the SM-2 in it's inventory and it would be wasteful not to use them.
-Simply upgrade and transition. It's not like the SM family isn't upgradable. In fact the USN is upgrading at a rate of 75 a year.
 
2. There is apparently some concern with SM-6 and it's usefulness against aircraft with towed active decoys and those with VLO radar cross sections and hence the "old" command guidance techniques used on SM-2 are considered useful enough to retain in-service.
 -Considering the SM-6 will have the SARH capability of the SM-2, it seems like this is a non-issue. While you're mucking about trying to buy an X-band phased array radar for your ships to act as a director, you could be buying SM-6s instead.
 
As to the "not enough missiles can be controlled" argument. That is largely a 'phallacy' (a spelling I created myself) of the "pro-missile barrage - Russia strong" Internet types, as I understand things because:

A). SM-2/ESSM do NOT require radar illumination for the entire duration of their flights.
-No kidding, that's why I specified terminal phase. You do understand that distinction?
 
B) Most AEGIS equipped ships mount multiple fire control radar directors. Whilst they are mounted relatively high on the superstructure, I don't think there has ever been anything particularly concerning with the F-100 series meta-centre and centre of gravity. On top of which, this also assumes that only the ship that fires the SM-2/ESSM, can control it. CEC wouldn't exist if THAT were the case...
 -There are no concerns right now, but then again there are no plans to add the weight of another phased array radar. And ships, as they age, always have concern about adding weight topside. New communications antennas, weapons, decoys, etc, all add to the problem. Why add to it for relatively little advantage, especially, if you're already transitioning to an active homing missile?

 
C) Software solutions exist that allow existing fire control directors to handle "multiple channels of fire" each.
 -The APAR does that. Missiles like the ESSM come in variants that allow for ICW, interrupted continuous wave. It is still restricted in how many missiles it can control in the terminal phase. 
.
 
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Volkodav       5/16/2009 9:40:08 PM
Advantages of a phased array (electronically scanned beam) director.
Reliability
-fewer points of failure
-(possibly) no single point of failure
-greater mean time between failures
-graceful degratation of performance in the event of a failure
-lower maintenance load on the crew
-greater suitability for repair by replacement
-lower weight
-more fire control channels
 
Think about it, fit 4 to 6 phased array director modules around the superstructure leaving space and weight to replace each of the current mechanical type units with say a SEARAM mount, or in the future a solid state laser CIWS using all the excess power freed up by the all electric propulsion system.
 
On all electric maintenance and support requirements, the RAN's Marine Technicians are already trained to maintain and operate the diesel generators onboard our skimmers and subs.
 
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gf0012-aust       5/16/2009 10:16:07 PM
AUSPAR did sosme service in the US for a few years... the dribble coming back seems to be that the cousins were quite impressed.

 
 
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CDT3    Aussie Defence upgrades, affordability   5/17/2009 10:20:50 PM
Aussie Digger. You make some valid arguments to my proposals, but I will be blunt, but not brief.
1. In defending our nation, there is no second best. As my statement maintained, Australia's defence capabilities have been neglected for over thirty years and now more than ever is the time to make sure we can afford what we need, so that for the most part we do not have to rely overmuch on support or backup from our American allies. Currently the way things are shaping up in the world, that aid might not be so forthcoming in the future.
2. To afford the proposals I put forward, several Rudd Government initiatives have to be scrapped, if not to make defence a priority in the near future, but also because those policies are absurd. A./ $40 billion broadband??, we don't need that one for sure. What so perverts can download porn faster, or little Kylie can research for her HSC two minutes quicker? B./ $5000 baby bonus? Crickey you've got to be kidding. If you plan on having kids, plan on affording them yourself, not waiting for government handouts that other taxpayers are funding, same goes for paid maternity/ paternity leave. People will have kids whether you pay em' to or not. There are quite a few other things here as well, but I think I've already paid for my proposal in this paragraph.
3. Glad you agreed with me on AWD numbers, it seems everybody else is as well. But I won't go into the technical aspects of these, that is pretty well covered by others.
4. The number of twelve subs was proposed quite some years ago, even as the Collins class was being built, so that it would be possible to maintain both a East and West coast sub fleet, with four apiece in service at any one time, and two vessels in dock for whatever reason at the time (ie maintainance, upgrades etc, etc). It is still relevent today.
5. Recruitment and Retention. This has been and will always remain an issue for Defence in Australia. Why, because fundamentally we're not really a very patriotic nation. Sure we'll turn out in droves to give support to our sporting teams in the international arena, but ask a young person what they think about a career in the Forces and they'll either give you a dumb look because they no idea what you're talking about, or tell you off in some obscene manner, or lastly, tell you they'd rather get a career in Finance (oh jeezes I'm gonna fall asleep). As far as retaining the people we do manage to lassoo in, give them a better deal. In my time in the RAN, you did your two years sea draft, then a year ashore, I don't think the sailors of today are getting that, and apart from decent pay levels, this has got to affect morale greatly. As an aside to this issue, in the 60's and 70's in the U.S., if you served for a minimum of four years, the government would pay for your higher education (ie college degree) providing you agreed to re-inlist for a further six years. I don't know if the seppo's still do that, but it would be worth exploring in Oz.
6. The Marines. I only suggested 5-8,000 because of realistic scenario's covered by several Staff College papers on future threats to Australia. Of course that number would certainly be viable over a period of time. Naturally you would not create such a new Armed force instantly the day the PM and Defence Minister of the day signed it off. It would most likely take around 7-10 years to create such a force and yes it would have to be at the expense of Army expansion in infantry levels. But that's the whole point. The army are not equipped for maritime operations and never will be. This is a dedicated role handled only by a dedicted Naval Brigade (Marines).
7. The Army. Yes I agree with you, on reading your statements there and I won't make any further comment except to refer to my original letter, more Abrams and Tigers.
8. Going back to Navy expansion and affordability. YES, YES! Our navy desperately needs at least one carrier. Picture this scenario (Sorry Karlo, it was your idea!) Indonesia is toppled by hostile Islamic forces from within. Hostile forces see Christams Island as staging point for expansion. One Aussie patrol boat and one Anzac frigate taken out by hostile Migs. Australia chooses to take back Christmas Island. Sends Navy, with Air Force support. Navy gets smashed by hostile Migs, because we didn't have enough AWD's, Air Force guys make a good showing but eventually they get screwed as well because the hostile Migs take out their tankers.
Same scenario deal 2. Navy has carrier with F35's. Navy goes in still with Air Force support. Carriers F35's defend fleet and repulse second wave of Migs. Marines retake island. Air Force is now in position to launch counter attack because Navy F35's are protecting tankers.
Same scenario deal 3. As above, with the exception that somehow we convinced the U.S. to sell us F22's. Navy takes and holds Christmas Island, Air Force immediately goes on the offensive and eliminates all Mig threats.
9. Yes the RAAF will get the P8-A, and yes the Global Hawk is under consideration. (As well as a UCAV capability for ARMY, but sorry no battlefield anti artillery rocket launchers have been mentioned).
10. A boost to strategic lift capability will be covered by the extra C130's, but we still need at least another 4-6 C17's.
 
That's it for now.
CDT3
 
 
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