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Subject: 120mm AMS in Australian service
BLUIE006    6/2/2008 4:45:13 AM
The 120 AMS (120mm Armored Mortar System) is a single barrel, smoothbore 120mm mortar turret suitable for integration on medium weight armored vehicles such as M113 and Piranha III. It is operated completely under armor featuring reduced recoil and semi-automatic loading system which makes possible integration on most types of wheeled and tracked vehicles.

The 120 Armored Mortar System mortar-turret fires existing and planned 120mm mortar ammunition and can be employed for direct fire engagements as well as indirect fire engagements. A 7.62mm machine gun and smoke grenade launchers provide additional self-defense capability.
h*tp://www.deagel.com/Weapon-Stations/120-AMS_a001428001.aspx

The 120 AMS has been integrated on M113A4 and Piranha III 8x8 chassis and is currently in service with the armies of Saudi Arabia and Australia.

Australia / 20
Saudi Arabia / 73


I had no idea ADF used 120 mortar??

Is this part of MINCS(L) AMP 48.36 ? Army Mortar System Project

The DMO site says its unapproved
 
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Aussiegunneragain       6/26/2008 9:59:37 AM

Which SP will they choose?       - Thats the only question

 

K9 or PZH


PZH for me. I'll never trust a howitzer named after the national dish of the country where it is built.....
 
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ArtyEngineer       6/26/2008 10:08:09 AM

Which SP will they choose?       - Thats the only question

 

K9 or PZH


My gut feeling is PZH, its too good a piece of gear to pass up on.  True its big, expensive, heavy, not the easiest to deploy.  But once its there it will kick some serious ass!!!!
 
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ArtyEngineer    AGA   6/26/2008 10:30:12 AM

I hadn't heard of PGK before, thanks. It looks like a great partner for Excalibur. The level of accuracy is such that you wouldn't even need to adjust before firing the entire battery, saving ammo and reducing the enemies chance of escape. Being able to use the full range of 155mm guns with RAP is also a huge boost. My BK once told me that they would previously only have been used if we had fired a regiment into a grid-square. Given that we generally operate our M-198's as a battery, its pretty clear that we can't use them to their full capability at the moment, but that looks to change with these fuses.

Glad to give a fellow Arty guy some info ;)  The PGK is gooing to have a bigger effect on teh Arty community than the Excalibur in my opinion.  In this thread Nuetraliser raised valid concerns regarding the logistics burden of supporting a howitzer battery by air.  In his opinion that made the whole concept fo a lightweight airmobile 155mm howitzer a bit of a non started for anyone other than the US who have lift assets out teh ass to be able to supply it.
Think about what teh PGK will do, it will rewrite teh effects tables with regards to number of round required to have the desired effects on target. Hence reducing the ammo required to be supplied.  Combine that with the Modular Artillery Charge System which allows you to repackage unused increments and your logistics burden has just shrunk drastically. And as you mentioned it makes the long range projos usefull again, for missions other that harrassing or terrain denial type.
 
Having said that the Canadians shot a RAP out to 30,060 meters in the stan and had steel on steel!!!!!  Total fluke obviously, but when your lucks in good things happen ;)
 
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doggtag    any naval interest in PGK?   6/26/2008 12:40:52 PM


 The PGK is gooing to have a bigger effect on teh Arty community than the Excalibur in my opinion.   And as you mentioned it makes the long range projos usefull again, for missions other that harrassing or terrain denial type....

 
ArtyEngineer,
has there been any interest from anyone pertaining to naval application for the PGK?
 
Again, taking their suggested data with a grain of salt (not that there are numerous other sites to draw from),
NavWeapons suggests that the various RN-type 4.5-inch guns can reach out ~22-27km, depending on Mod.
And the UDLP BAE Mk42 (still in service) and Mk 45 series 5-inch guns supposedly can muster ~23km, with a respectable ~38km for the 62-cal barrel Mod 4.
With PGK's enhanced precision vs unguided rounds, a lot of stationary (coastal, inland, and seaborne) targets will succumb faster to naval gunfire.
Certainly seems that it's a damn good niche market to try and corner: developing PGKs for naval ammunition.
Seeing as so many navies operate 4.5-5-inch guns, it seems like a no-brainer to develop naval PGKs.
The ships thus engaging land targets may still be within range of coastal defenses (even if 30km is BVR from near-shore systems),
but still, that extra precision alone could encourage so many prospective buyers, although it would entail new equipment in ships to allow for accomodating a PGK fuze magazine and creating a compatible fuze installer that can still select between it and Point Detonating or Variable Time/Proximity Fuze types (even if it had to be manually done, it would still prove itself worthwhile).
But it might be worth the expense, if it allows near-missile-like precision but at a cost much closer to artillery rounds.
 
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ArtyEngineer    DT   6/26/2008 12:50:43 PM
Im not aware of any thought being given to Naval applications for the PGK, however its a no brainer really.  As soon as the Army have paid the development costs and the kinks worked out im sure the tech will be leveraged into Naval Ammo. 
 
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Volkodav    From ADM   6/27/2008 6:52:56 AM

DONAR

    Under cover

    DONAR is an autonomous system aimed, loaded and fired with the crew under complete armour protection.

    Too late for Land 17?



    23 Jun 2008

    At Eurosatory, General Dynamics European Land Systems is displaying the recently completed Donar (or Thor) 155mm selfpropelled (SP) artillery system.

    Donar is an autonomous system that is aimed, loaded and fired with the crew under complete armour protection.

    It has already completed a series of firepower and mobility trials.

    This private venture between Krauss-Maffei Wegmann (KMW) of Germany and GDELS has been created to meet emerging requirements for a highly mobile and lighterweight 155mm/52 calibre SP artillery system with the same firepower as the current KMW PzH 2000, which weighs about 55 tonnes.

    Donar will be marketed on a worldwide basis as a potential replacement for the widely deployed US M109 155mm SP artillery system that was first developed some 50 years ago.

    The consortium has already started to brief other potential Donar customers, including the German Army, which has a possible requirement for up to 41 systems.

    For a high level of cross-country mobility, Donar has a new armoured chassis that uses automotive components of the latest General Dynamics Santa Barbara Sistemas (part of GDELS) ASCOD 2 infantry fighting vehicle chassis with a fully protected crew compartment at the front.

    Mounted on the rear of the chassis is a remotely controlled turret armed with the same 155mm/52 calibre ordnance as fitted to the current KMW PzH 2000.

    The turret is a further development of the KMW Artillery Gun Module that has already carried out successful firing trials installed on a tracked Multiple Launch Rocket System chassis.
     
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    Herald12345    PGKs..........   6/27/2008 7:10:30 AM





     The PGK is gooing to have a bigger effect on teh Arty community than the Excalibur in my opinion.   And as you mentioned it makes the long range projos usefull again, for missions other that harrassing or terrain denial type....



     


    ArtyEngineer,

    has there been any interest from anyone pertaining to naval application for the PGK?

     

    Again, taking their suggested data with a grain of salt (not that there are numerous other sites to draw from),

    NavWeapons suggests that the various RN-type 4.5-inch guns can reach out ~22-27km, depending on Mod.

    And the UDLP BAE Mk42 (still in service) and Mk 45 series 5-inch guns supposedly can muster ~23km, with a respectable ~38km for the 62-cal barrel Mod 4.

    With PGK's enhanced precision vs unguided rounds, a lot of stationary (coastal, inland, and seaborne) targets will succumb faster to naval gunfire.

    Certainly seems that it's a damn good niche market to try and corner: developing PGKs for naval ammunition.

    Seeing as so many navies operate 4.5-5-inch guns, it seems like a no-brainer to develop naval PGKs.

    The ships thus engaging land targets may still be within range of coastal defenses (even if 30km is BVR from near-shore systems),

    but still, that extra precision alone could encourage so many prospective buyers, although it would entail new equipment in ships to allow for accomodating a PGK fuze magazine and creating a compatible fuze installer that can still select between it and Point Detonating or Variable Time/Proximity Fuze types (even if it had to be manually done, it would still prove itself worthwhile).

    But it might be worth the expense, if it allows near-missile-like precision but at a cost much closer to artillery rounds.




    Has anyone given thought to the fact that a ballistic projectile needn't be an artillery shell to use such a precision guidance fuse kit?

    Those butterfly vaned nose guidance kits will work on free flight ROCKETS.............
     
    Herald
     
     
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    ArtyEngineer    Herald   6/27/2008 10:33:52 AM











     The PGK is gooing to have a bigger effect on teh Arty community than the Excalibur in my opinion.   And as you mentioned it makes the long range projos usefull again, for missions other that harrassing or terrain denial type....







     






    ArtyEngineer,



    has there been any interest from anyone pertaining to naval application for the PGK?



     



    Again, taking their suggested data with a grain of salt (not that there are numerous other sites to draw from),



    NavWeapons suggests that the various RN-type 4.5-inch guns can reach out ~22-27km, depending on Mod.



    And the UDLP BAE Mk42 (still in service) and Mk 45 series 5-inch guns supposedly can muster ~23km, with a respectable ~38km for the 62-cal barrel Mod 4.



    With PGK's enhanced precision vs unguided rounds, a lot of stationary (coastal, inland, and seaborne) targets will succumb faster to naval gunfire.



    Certainly seems that it's a damn good niche market to try and corner: developing PGKs for naval ammunition.



    Seeing as so many navies operate 4.5-5-inch guns, it seems like a no-brainer to develop naval PGKs.



    The ships thus engaging land targets may still be within range of coastal defenses (even if 30km is BVR from near-shore systems),



    but still, that extra precision alone could encourage so many prospective buyers, although it would entail new equipment in ships to allow for accomodating a PGK fuze magazine and creating a compatible fuze installer that can still select between it and Point Detonating or Variable Time/Proximity Fuze types (even if it had to be manually done, it would still prove itself worthwhile).



    But it might be worth the expense, if it allows near-missile-like precision but at a cost much closer to artillery rounds.











    Has anyone given thought to the fact that a ballistic projectile needn't be an artillery shell to use such a precision guidance fuse kit?




    Those butterfly vaned nose guidance kits will work on free flight ROCKETS.............

     

    Herald


     






    Are you thinking of an even cheaper alternative to GMLRS?  I see absolutely no reason why as you suggest such a guidance system would not work on such a free flight rocket system.
     
    As I understand it the principal of the PGK is very simple.  It stores the predicted ballistic trajectory, does an assement of where it is for any given T (time) compares to where it should be, extrapolate forward to do a should hit/will hit comparison and attempts to correct accordingly. 
     
    Here is a link to an excellent Article from Ft Sill regarding the PGK.  PGK Article from Ft Sill
     
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    Aussiegunneragain    AE   6/27/2008 10:45:00 AM
    I'm hearing you on the importance of PGK fuses for accuracy and ammo conservation. It will be quite revolutionary. Realistically though I reckon Australia would be able to air supply an all 155mm operation without it. We are not only in the process of beefing up our rotary wing capabilities but all the potential combat zones within our region are well within the radius of the RAAF transport fleet, which gives us the ability to resupply by airdrop. Thats not to say that that the PGK's impact on ammo conservation isn't welcome though, as it improves our ability to shift other loads and gives us comfort of the transport fleet suffers losses or if part of it is tied up on other operations.
    The only minor problem that I have with 155mm rounds is that the bigger area of effect increases the danger close range when supporting light infantry compared to 105mm. I'd imagine that Excalibur's accuracy would compensate for this, but the first tranche of PGK fuses would require the same precations as ordinary rounds at shorter ranges. I was wondering if there are any solutions being developed to deal with this? I'd imagine that a "thin skinned" 155mm round that relied on blast effect rather than fragmentation might do the trick. Better still, what about an HE round which can be set to discard the outer shell (like an APDS round) at the flick of a catch for a danger close mission? I'd imagine it wouldn't be that difficult an engineering solution and would save having to load up two types of bombs.
     
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    ArtyEngineer    AGA   6/27/2008 11:07:56 AM
    You mean a projectile like this:  Aviation Week article on Composite Shell
     
    My understanding is that this is primarily being developed as a "Payload" carrier, however with a unitary HE filler it would be more suitable for your danger close type missions in support of troops in contact.
     
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    Aussiegunneragain    AE   6/27/2008 11:44:10 AM

    You mean a projectile like this:  Aviation Week article on Composite Shell

     

    My understanding is that this is primarily being developed as a "Payload" carrier, however with a unitary HE filler it would be more suitable for your danger close type missions in support of troops in contact.


    The link doesn't work but your post gave me some idea of what you were talking about. Basically you would adapt a submunition cargo carrier like the M-483 to fill the role. It would just involve a unitary filler as you say, attached to the nosecone and fitted with a standard detonation charge. However, it would also require some means of getting rid of the cladding on the side of the shell, which as I understand it is normally taken care of by the expulsion charge. I'm thinking that the cladding would fit into flanges in the nosecone with some sort of electromechanical release to pop off the base, which would be routed through to the fuse to come off at the right height. It would require some sort of proximity or time delay fuse though. Does the PGK have an airburst capability?

    www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/m483.htm
     
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    ArtyEngineer    AGA   6/27/2008 12:20:26 PM
    Damn this board and its seemingly random approach to letting me post limks, pics and vids etc!!!
     
    Regarding PGK and airburst, Yes, block 2 PGK will give the full spectrum of fuse options, Delay, PD, VT and Proximity.  Block 1 is simply PD and Delay, while Block 3 will improve accuracy to 30m CEP and be compatible with 105mm.
     
    Regarding the M483 and M864 DPICM munitions, I was going to mention those with regards to Danger Close missions.  Both these munitions can be set to function as a HE filled PD functioning round.  By nature of its primary purpose as a payload carrier it has a reduced "Fragmentation" effect and primarily effects target by blast.  Obviously cant give numbers ;)
     
    Since link to composite shel didnt work, here is a cut a paste job.  This projo woulndt need any discarding of outer sleeve as i suspect teh composite casing will combust as opposed to fragmenting on detonation.
     

    The industry team developing the 155-mm. Impaqt future artillery munition has achieved a key milestone in the firing of the first meter-long fully composite "strength-of-design" projectile at the U.K. Ministry of Defence (MoD) Eskmeals firing range in county Cumbria, northwestern England.

    According to QinetiQ, the lead contractor in Team Impaqt, the firing should be seen as part of an MoD-wide initiative to ensure modern fighting forces are suitably equipped and have maximum mobility to operate on tomorrow?s urban battlefields.



    The Team Impaqt all-composite 155-mm. artillery shell that was fired successfully in England this week. Image: Qinetiq

    It "is a key stage in the U.K. MoD Lightweight Advanced Munition (LWAM), part of the Advanced Ordnance Demonstrator (AOD) program," Qinetiq says this morning.

    The AOD program investigates the ability to provide mobile forces with a lightweight rapid response capability with at least the same performance as today?s conventional heavyweight systems like the multiple launch rocket system (MLRS) or Britain's AS90 self-propelled 155-mm. howitzer.

    The current work on "strength of design" will demonstrate the design performance and capability of the LWAM and a further ballistic firing is anticipated for March 2008, Qinetiq says.

    LWAM is a 30-kg., 155-mm. munition, able to carry a variety of payloads including high explosive, smoke or illuminating canisters.

    Significantly, its structural airframe components are manufactured almost entirely from composites.

    That, in comparison with existing conventional rounds that weigh over 40 kg., enables range, lethality and accuracy at least as good as current in-service conventional munitions together with a large reduction in weight consistent with achieving a Rapid Reaction capability, Qinetiq says.

    Precision targeting will be achieved by using a gun-hardened guidance, navigation and control system.

    When fired from a conventional 39-calibre 155-mm. ordnance system preliminary results indicate that the composite munition withstood the demanding loading conditions in-bore and operated correctly during subsequent flight.

    Team Impaqt is comprised of QinetiQ, Nexter, BAE Systems Bofors and MBDA. Team Impaqt is currently conducting various guided munition and related research programmes for the U.K. and French defense ministries.
     
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    doggtag       6/27/2008 12:47:00 PM


    Regarding PGK and airburst, Yes, block 2 PGK will give the full spectrum of fuse options, Delay, PD, VT and Proximity.  Block 1 is simply PD and Delay, while Block 3 will improve accuracy to 30m CEP and be compatible with 105mm.

    Sounds good, but...
     
    We've all seen those videos of G-MLRS rockets and Excaliburs landing in bunkers and on targets, and not 30m away,
    so you know if their suggesting the PGK's future increments will have a 30m CEP, it's certainly going to be a lot less in all actuality (it'll surprise me if less than 70-80% fall inside of a 10m CEP, and at maximum ranges, pending favorable weather conditions).
     
    Sounds good no matter what, but I'd still like to see 105mm PGMs (laser guided), not entirely different from Russian 100mm Bastion missiles, allowing field artillery a more precise munition for danger-close where pinpoint matters (yeah, 120mm mortars have a whole slew of PGMs coming along, but the 105 still works).
    If they've been having success doing laser-guided 70mm rockets, why not 105mm artillery shells?
    Between a 105mm CLGP ("Copperhead lite") and PGK-equipped shells, what more do you need? 
    (If the PGK fuze works in its future increments as advertised, surely the potential is there for a laser-seeker PGK-type fuze insert that can turn any dumb shell into a smart shell, the tough part being: do we stop the shell's rotation and affect course changes that way, or pursue some other means, as laser seekerheads generally don't like to be rotating at high RPMs to work properly...)
     
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    Aussiegunneragain    AE   6/27/2008 12:49:05 PM
    Thanks for that, very interesting article. As for cluster munitions, I would imagine that they would be ideal for danger close missions due to their predictable dispersal pattern and limited fragmentation effects. However, Australia has a policy of not using them due to the risk of UX ordinance, hence my question about a low frag HE alternative. Whatever the case it doesn't look like it would be too hard to have somebody put together if we decide we need it.
     
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    Herald12345    Firefox and IE hate each other on this board.   6/27/2008 12:51:13 PM
    Links that work in one search engine don't transfer to the other point for point. I still haven't figured it out.
     
    Back on topic. That composite shell cargo body looks interesting, but expensive.. How expensive is it, and is there some way to use its reduced mass to increase overall range, while retaining a substantial proportion of its blast fragmentation effect?
     
    And how long will it take to compute the ballistic tables for this class of shells? I am almost sure, that you have to compute new  ballistic tables for the family class of projectiles.
     
    Herald 

     
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