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Subject: Tanks at risk from rockets
Volkodav    5/5/2008 7:29:32 AM
Mark Dodd | The Austraian May 05, 2008
AUSTRALIA'S newly acquired $560 million fleet of Abrams tanks can be easily disabled by the latest generation shoulder-fired rocket launcher, a government-funded think tank has warned.

But the 59 refurbished M1A1 Abrams, bought from the US by the Howard government, still offer better protection than their ageing German Leopard-1 predecessors, says a paper from theAustralian Strategic Policy Institute.

Unlike the latest US M1A2 model, the Australian variant is protected by ceramic plate instead of superior depleted uranium armour, the ASPI says in its latest report on army capability.

"Although it provides good protection against early-model shoulder-fired anti-armour weapons now prevalent in the region, it is vulnerable to advanced Russian systems proliferating elsewhere, including the Middle East," it says.

The paper singling out the 70-tonne behemoths emerged yesterday as Kevin Rudd lashed the former government for wasting taxpayers' dollars on questionable defence purchases.

"There has been billions of dollars in defence waste - in one major project after another. This has got to stop," he told the NSW Labor conference.

The Abrams was always a controversial purchase, with critics claiming the new-generation Leopard-2 tank was Australia's best option.
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The end of the day I dont think there is very much separating the Leo 2 and the M-1A2 Abrams although the lack of the commanders independant thermal sight and the DU armour on our M-1A1 SEP's may give the Leo 2 the edge. (I am assuming the DU made the M-1A2 unacceptable for Australia)

Either way, Leo or Abrams, considering the tanks were bought for infantry support in built up areas, I would have thought we would have gone for PSO or TUSK versions.
 
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Arty Farty       5/5/2008 11:41:33 AM

The paper singling out the 70-tonne behemoths emerged yesterday as Kevin Rudd lashed the former government for wasting taxpayers' dollars on questionable defence purchases.

"There has been billions of dollars in defence waste - in one major project after another. This has got to stop," he told the NSW Labor conference.


There was a commentator on ABC radio that said that the ALP is still sufferring from an Opposition mindset. They've yet to relise that instead of saying something about a problem, they're actually  in a position to do something about it.
PS: Nothing is perfect, all the main western MBTs have shown to be deficient. The Challenger 2 (reputedly has the best base protection), was penetrated by a RPG-29. Merkava IVs and Abrams likewise have been  found wanting. The Canadian in response have fitted slat/bar armour to their deployed Leo2s (link which I though was odd at first but in retrospect is wise.
 
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VelocityVector    Misinformed Critics, Methinks   5/5/2008 12:19:47 PM

Are there any kinetic penetrators or hesh that are fired from the shoulder?  DU helps protect against kinetic and hesh, not shaped charge like RPG (metals melt).  Oz M1s with ceramic may not suffer from a lesser degree of protection against infantry weaps in comparison with US M1s or Leos.  Vice kinetic, sure they operate at disadvantage.  I think slat armor and anti-mine plates might make sense for Oz.  All these tanks under discussion are vulnerable to top attack in any event. 0.02

v^2
 
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FJV       5/5/2008 1:12:18 PM
Maybe all those "specialists" in the media are able to tell me which tanks aren't vunerable from rockets?




 
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ArtyEngineer       5/5/2008 1:35:15 PM
Shock horror!!!!  Tanks vulnerable to "Anti Tank" weaponary!!!!!!   Imagine that eh?
 
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VelocityVector    FJV   5/5/2008 1:41:43 PM

Concur.

FWIW my "metals melt" description is itself misinformative.  The process is considerably more complicated and I attempted to simplify.  I'm as awful as the critics :>)

v^2

 
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displacedjim       5/5/2008 2:49:16 PM

Maybe all those "specialists" in the media are able to tell me which tanks aren't vunerable from rockets?






SHACK!
 
That's exactly one of my biggest peeves about "critics" who are really merely being contrarians, and are basically just whining for the sake hearing themselves whine.  Criticizing while failing to address the alternatives is mostly empty hot air.
 
 
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Herald12345       5/5/2008 4:44:12 PM



Maybe all those "specialists" in the media are able to tell me which tanks aren't vunerable from rockets?







SHACK!

 

That's exactly one of my biggest peeves about "critics" who are really merely being contrarians, and are basically just whining for the sake hearing themselves whine.  Criticizing while failing to address the alternatives is mostly empty hot air.

 

Agreed. The mission of a tank is to bring shock action to bear in a  maneuver war. Its not a fort. Its an armored mobile cannon that seeks the best compromise of speed, mass, protection and offense to disrupt the enemy infantry and its opposites .

The best compromises appear to be the Leo 2s [offense], M-1s [offense], Challengers [defense] and Merkavas [defense] based on what each prime user intended in his COMBINED ARMS PACKAGE.

Those so called expert commentators [whiners] failed to note that most of the tanks that got themselves in anti-tank rocket trouble, were lone rangers that outran their infantry screens?

Herald
 
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AdvanceAustralia    Why tanks?   5/5/2008 8:53:12 PM
Why does it always seem to be tanks, by their very design and purpose arguably the least vulnerable weapon system, that draw the attention of journos who need to fill some space in a hurry. This "easy to hit with a rocket" statement is often used by people who argue that tanks are out of date. I can think of a few headlines that would be at least applicable:

"New fighter aircraft at risk from SAMs"

"New destroyers at risk from torpedoes"

"New artillery at risk from counter-battery fire"

"New infantry recruits at risk from bullets..."

Some people just don't understand the concept of combined arms co-operation.



 
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DropBear       5/5/2008 9:30:26 PM

Give them time...

"New fighter aircraft at risk from SAMs" - tuesdays headline

"New destroyers at risk from torpedoes" - wednesdays headline

"New artillery at risk from counter-battery fire" - thursdays headline

"New infantry recruits at risk from bullets..." - fridays headline.
 
You just need to be patient with these folk. 
 
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Volkodav       5/6/2008 6:43:12 AM
You forgot gf's all time favourite recuring headline "Dud Subs"
 
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Volkodav       5/6/2008 6:49:34 AM
How about getting Tank Urban Survival Kits for our M-1's?
 
 
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Arty Farty       5/6/2008 8:49:52 AM
The quoted ASPI report (8 pages, easy read)
 
The press seems to have missed the most the part about what the ADF seriously lacks, and something that this board has already identified - Australia doesn't have much of a land based ant-aircraft capability.
 
 
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FJV    Though I must admit   5/6/2008 12:10:31 PM
It is kind of strange to see the usual "pundits" lobbying for a tank with the "accursed" depleted uranium armor.

If the Australian govt. would have purchased the depleted uranium version it is very likely the same "experts" would be howling about the tanks using "radioactive" material in it's armor.




 
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Volkodav    Woo hoo we are getting TUSK   5/14/2008 3:18:51 AM
From the DMO Budget papers

Land 907 is continuing to delivery on time and within budget. The major equipment elements of the project have been delivered, such as the M1A1 Abrams Tanks, M88A2 HERCULES Recovery Vehicle, Heavy Tank Transporters, Simulators, Repair Parts and Training. The project is still to deliver the Multi-Spectral Camouflage System, Gas Masks, Tank Suits and additional Rotatable Items. The Ministers for Defence and Finance approved a scope change to Project Land 907 in March 2008 for the procurement of the Tank Urban Survivability Kit which will be delivered in years 2009-2010
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All we need now is another 23 hulls and we will have a Regiment again.
 
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