I really wonder whether there is any depth of understanding in China of how democratic societies work. Recently they have gone around threatening "revenge" against BHP for charging the market price for iron ore, then they come up with this bullsh1t about having their army supervise the torch relay in another soveriegn country. It's beyond arrogence into the territory of pure cultural ignorance.

 

As an example of how they just don't get it that the government can't control everythign, I remember attending a public  health training session where they related a story about how the Chinese were amused at the notion of building support in the community for a public health intervention. The Chinese said that they wouldn't need to build community support, because the government would just say that it would happen and it would. Then they wonder why they have a rampant AIDS problem.

 

 

Its like the insanely over-protective, controlling parent who locks their child up than wonders why on Earth they would try to hop out the window of such a "loving" environment.

 

Wonder what they would say if we absolutely insisted that a company of U.S. Marines escorted our Our Olympic team throughout their country...

during Tainanmen Sq I was attached to the China Task Force.  I had a glorious member of the Chinese Embassy ram my Z car so as to interfere with my progress - this was outside the embassy perimeter and so outside of the nominal jurisdiction and sovereign territory "noblesse oblige" of the Chinese Govt.

 

We haven't even begun to see them flex their muscles, they've already tried it with our resources sector, and now they are trying to dictate face saving event management like the Olympics.

 

You can imagine the hue and cry if the US had one of their DC cars ram a Z car, there would be rioting in the uni campuses.

 

as usual - not a peep from the pseudo intelligentsia who masquerade as uni students....

 

Just because statement 'B' is true doesn't mean statement 'A' isn't. Last time I checked moral relativism was supposed to be the province of the Godless left, not a defence for conservatives to get their friendly superpower off the hook. If America's best defence for its misbehaviours is 'we are better than China' then they are actually a minor improvement at best. (just a question, how many non-Chinese has China been directly involved in killing since 1949? OR how many democracies has China actively helped to overthrow/dictatorships has China actively helped to support in the same period? Do a quick comparison with the figure for America & you might see why some are a wee bit critical of out American bretheren). 

 

As for the activists, they will get there. Many are already on the 'Tibet' bandwagon. The unerring ability of ther Comrades in Beijing to shoot themselves in the foot will no doubt bring more on side in time. 

 

Oh right, so the fact that the Chinese have killed millions of their own people who don't fit the Communist mould doesn't matter? Nice. What about all those Tibetans and Uighers that the Han Chinese have killed and oppressed over the years? They don't consider themselves to be Chinese. There might also be a few Indians and Vietnamese that contest your view.

 

I also find it fascinating how you leap from a treatise on the flaws of moral reletivism, to using it to compare the US unfavourably to China within a single paragraph. Perhaps you need to practice what you preach?

 

Anyway, in a theoretical, utopian universe you are of course correct that comparison's between the US and China are irrelevant if we are discussing the absolute morality of their behavour. However, in this universe we have to make a choice as to whom we support and based on the relitive comparison, I pick the US by a country mile. The US has done many of those things that you mention, but by and large they were done to oppose the very sort of Communist oppression that has dominated China over the last 60 years. That ideology has killed hundred's of millions so if the US had to do some dirty things to prevent its spread, then as far as I'm concerned the means has justified the ends.

 

 There is of course the path of neutrality, but that carries its own moral hazards. I wonder what would have happenned to Swedish and Swiss Jew's had the Nazi's won WW2?

 

Enjoy continuing to live in your little moral bubble, unsullied by the nasty little reality called real life. Keep sending out your little pronouncements too. There is actually a chance that the US being a liberal democracy, that some American's might actually take  them on board. I tend to think though that you would be wasting your time trying to influence Chinese citizens though, as their government is likely to give them a quick dose of lead poisoning for such seditious utterances.

Just because statement 'B' is true doesn't mean statement 'A' isn't. Last time I checked moral relativism was supposed to be the province of the Godless left, not a defence for conservatives to get their friendly superpower off the hook. If America's best defence for its misbehaviours is 'we are better than China' then they are actually a minor improvement at best. (just a question, how many non-Chinese has China been directly involved in killing since 1949? OR how many democracies has China actively helped to overthrow/dictatorships has China actively helped to support in the same period? Do a quick comparison with the figure for America & you might see why some are a wee bit critical of out American bretheren). 

"then as far as I'm concerned the means has justified the ends."

 

Ah yes, the last refuge of the moral bankrupt.

 

Funny, I just spent a week playing whackamole with Chinese posters on another board who were arguing much the same thing. Well, at least you'll have some company in the moral vacuum.

 

Chinese communists got direct involvement in Korean War, which led to survive of the most disgusting regime, DPRK.

Chinese communists actively support North Vietnam to conduct war against South Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia. They provided men, war material and necessary subsistence to North Vietnam so that the war can drag on.

Chinese communists engaged RVN navy in 1974 and grabbed some islands in South China Sea, when North Vietnam tried to invade RVN the first time.

Chinese communists helped Khmer Rouge took power and fought a bitter war with Vietnamese, because Vietnamese did exact the same thing GWB did in Iraq: depose dictatorship that causes only human suffering.

Chinese communists surprise-attacked India in 1962, and they are still supporting Maoists guerrilla in Subcontinent.

There are other cases such as Chinese communist support of communist guerrilla throughout the world (especially in Malaysia and Indonesia), Shining Path, FARC etc. You can actually see Chinese agents working around global conflicts. Most of the time, they are there to make profit, but also working to expand Chinese influence.

You have no idea about Chinese global involvement and what commies actually did in the past 60 years. One of the reason US admins all took their concession toward China in the past 30 years is to persuade them not to cause troubles around the world. Imaging if they had their way without fear of US intervention. Yes, the US, that evil Caucasian Empire who always push their version of political system to the world and lured away a lot of people who should BOW DOWN to Chinese communists.

 

Yellichink,

 

Thank you for the history lesson, but it is not necessary. I am aware of the vile history of the CCP and will celebrate the day when it is no longer able to oppress people.

 

This argument is not about that. For all their bluster, conservatives hereabouts don't give a stuff about the fate of the Chinese people, they just want to take a cheap shot at the local left. The argument that a person or group is only right if they act consistently in ALL circumstances is just as absurd here as when those who protest against America use it to decry American actions in places like Iraq. Such arguments are just about taking cheap shots.

 

To apply the same logic, Western action on human rights in China at this point would be absurdly hypocritical because a) we've done stuff all so far, and b) there are much worse abusers out there. I trust you don't believe that.

 

The funny thing is that if you asked the non-chinese/Tibetan protesters currently humiliating China to self-identify their politics, I'm guessing most would say 'left'. Already members of the IOC are starting to grumble about 'rentacrowds' & such - code for left wing protesters. As soon as anti-China protests start to get in the way of profits you can be damned sure that a horde of conservatives clutching the banner of 'realpolitik' will lead the charge to shut them up.

I wasn't employing relativism here, just providing a known benchmark for comparison. Not only will the PRC display a distinct lack of cultural sensitivity, it will act regardless even when it is aware of the impact it will have have on the victims. Tibet is a current example.

The US might lack some knowledge of cultures in the areas in which it intervenes but at least it makes some effort to know them and and acts with good intentions. Of course that depends on your point of view and who you think the bad guys are.

 

Everything you have said here about China can be applied the the US too. And as for good intentions...when they don't get in the way of whatever policy is driving the intervention, sure.

 

As for the 'good guys' & 'bad guys': the 'good guys' stand up for the rights of people no matter how inconvenient it may be to governments or corporations, the 'bad guys' treat human rights as a propaganda tool to beat their opponents over the head with.

 

If you want to know which nation I would rather see as a world power, America or China, then it is America. If you think this gets America some sort of free pass on basic standards of human rights or decency then you moral compass is as badly busted as AG's. 

As for the 'good guys' & 'bad guys': the 'good guys' stand up for the rights of people no matter how inconvenient it may be to governments or corporations, the 'bad guys' treat human rights as a propaganda tool to beat their opponents over the head with.

To apply the same logic, Western action on human rights in China at this point would be absurdly hypocritical because a) we've done stuff all so far, and b) there are much worse abusers out there. I trust you don't believe that.