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Subject: What if AUP had been cancelled and we never bought the F-111G's?
Volkodav    2/7/2008 4:05:38 AM
What would our air combat force be like today if we had replaced/retired the F-111C during the 1990's instead of upgrading and supplementing the force?

How would this have effected the F/A-18A/B life of type and its eventual replacement?
 
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Aussie Diggermark 2       2/7/2008 5:23:52 AM

What would our air combat force be like today if we had replaced/retired the F-111C during the 1990's instead of upgrading and supplementing the force?

How would this have effected the F/A-18A/B life of type and its eventual replacement?
I'd suggest the Pigs would have been retired in the mid to late 90's with "night attack" C/D model Hornets or Beagles to replace the same.

And then we'd never have seen Super Hornets... :)
 
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DropBear       2/7/2008 8:34:38 PM
What would our air combat force be like today if we had replaced/retired the F-111C during the 1990's instead of upgrading and supplementing the force?

My guess is that we would have followed the USAF and bought two sqns of F-15E. The problem being that they would have been sans tankers and appropriate weapons in the maritime strike role.

Personally, I would ahve liked to have seen the Tornado IDS in roo roundels had we replaced the Pig (or had not ever even selected it).

I doubt we would have gone for F-18C/D Night Attack, as that doesn't offer anything more other than an uncoupled office.

How would this have effected the F/A-18A/B life of type and its eventual replacement?
 
I think had we bought the F-15E, then the F-18A would have had a slight reprieve from the A2G role and would spend more time doing DCA/OCA missions.
 
Why would you bother using both Bugs and Beagles on the same bomb trucking mission when the Beagle does it better.
 
They'd both get replaced at the same time with the F-35A in my view.
 
 
 
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Lawman       2/8/2008 11:40:28 AM
It would have created a clear hole in air combat capability, and require a suitable replacement.
 
The primary options could be:
 
- F-15Es, as DB says
- Tornado GR-1s upgraded to GR-4s
- A-6s ex-USN
- F-14Ds in Bombcat configuration
 
 
Another interesting idea would have been (no, again, I'm not that moron Kopp) to buy up more of the F-111Gs, and upgrade them with new engines and weapons systems, e.g. an updated pack to go in the bomb bay, perhaps including a good jammer, plus a newer laser targetting system. They could have carried eight 1000lb laser guided bombs plus two ASRAAMs, or alternatively four standoff cruise missiles plus ASRAAMs. With much newer F110 engines, performance would have been pretty impressive, and have allowed the Hornets to handle the pure A2A role. Given the timing, you could also have fitted the APQ-99 podded system, which was supposed to be integratable onto pretty much anything (it was supposedly meant to be almost plug-and-play, giving moderately good performance, but not as dynamic as the proper EA-6B fit). Again, long range recon kit, in a modular pack, gives you yet another potential version - F-111s, EF-111s and RF-111s, but all through the fitting of modular packs.
 
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DropBear       2/8/2008 9:44:58 PM
Another interesting idea would have been (no, again, I'm not that moron Kopp) to buy up more of the F-111Gs, and upgrade them with new engines and weapons systems, e.g. an updated pack to go in the bomb bay, perhaps including a good jammer, plus a newer laser targetting system. They could have carried eight 1000lb laser guided bombs plus two ASRAAMs, or alternatively four standoff cruise missiles plus ASRAAMs. With much newer F110 engines, performance would have been pretty impressive, and have allowed the Hornets to handle the pure A2A role. Given the timing, you could also have fitted the APQ-99 podded system, which was supposed to be integratable onto pretty much anything (it was supposedly meant to be almost plug-and-play, giving moderately good performance, but not as dynamic as the proper EA-6B fit). Again, long range recon kit, in a modular pack, gives you yet another potential version - F-111s, EF-111s and RF-111s, but all through the fitting of modular packs.
 
I believe the fifteen F-111G were only ever to be used as conversion mounts for 6SQN. I think the remaining C's and the four RF-111C's were transfered to 1SQN as the primary unit. The G's being used as a training aid to take the slack of airframe fatigure hours in that role. That is why they didn't get the full AUP of the C's. Also why the G model has been quietly retired as there is to be either only one more (or no more) active conversions to type onto the Pig. i believe the crews in the stream now are it.
 
However, I would have liked to have seen our spineless leaders upgrade the Pigs sooner and more often over the last thirty years and it should have been given a wider range of munitions.
 
I know it is a Koppian fantasy, but I do wonder what might have been had the Amraam been integrated. Nothing fancy, just four Amraam per Pig with appropriate avionics/radar upgrades.
 
 
 
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Volkodav       3/20/2008 11:19:01 AM
However, I would have liked to have seen our spineless leaders upgrade the Pigs sooner and more often over the last thirty years and it should have been given a wider range of munitions.
 
As a replacement for HMAS Melbourne in 1984 the government orders an additional 30 surplus F-111A's from the US to form a second strike wing to be based at a considerably expanded RAAF Curtin in Derby WA to cover the Indian Ocean in defence of the Air / Sea Gap.  Each Wing will have a dual role maritime strike / SEAD squadron and a tactical strike / recce squadron equipped with specifically modified F-111's.
 
At the same time the F/A-18 program is cancelled and 70 F-14D's are ordered instead, these are to be built by Grumman in the US but there is a major offset deal attached dictating that Grumman will assist ASTA in designing and implementing a major upgrade program for the expanded F-111 fleet so it can fully conduct its changed role through the 90's and well into the new millennium.
 
For all intents and purposes this upgrade program is to guarantee jobs at ASTA so there is no limit to what the government will pay to get done the only limits are that IOC for both modified models be no later than 1990and there should be as much commonality with the F-14D fleet as possible.  What Airframe, engine, avionics and ordnance mods would you go for?
 
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gf0012-aust       3/20/2008 5:14:58 PM


What would our air combat force be like today if we had replaced/retired the F-111C during the 1990's instead of upgrading and supplementing the force?

My guess is that we would have followed the USAF and bought two sqns of F-15E. The problem being that they would have been sans tankers and appropriate weapons in the maritime strike role.



I don't see any platform sans approp weapons fit as an issue.
RAAF (and the other sister services) have an overwhelming compunction to australianise anything.  ARDU would have got "number one" and been told to turn kerkanya into an AShM.  Give the RAAF a tissue box and they'll offer up a proposal to turn it into a dismountable missile box :)
 
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Aussie Diggermark 2       3/20/2008 10:43:39 PM


What would our air combat force be like today if we had replaced/retired the F-111C during the 1990's instead of upgrading and supplementing the force?

My guess is that we would have followed the USAF and bought two sqns of F-15E. The problem being that they would have been sans tankers and appropriate weapons in the maritime strike role.

Personally, I would ahve liked to have seen the Tornado IDS in roo roundels had we replaced the Pig (or had not ever even selected it).

I doubt we would have gone for F-18C/D Night Attack, as that doesn't offer anything more other than an uncoupled office.

How would this have effected the F/A-18A/B life of type and its eventual replacement?
 

I think had we bought the F-15E, then the F-18A would have had a slight reprieve from the A2G role and would spend more time doing DCA/OCA missions.

 

Why would you bother using both Bugs and Beagles on the same bomb trucking mission when the Beagle does it better.

 

They'd both get replaced at the same time with the F-35A in my view.

 

 



The Night Attack Hornets would have offered plenty in the mid to late 90's which is the period we are discussing, compared to Sparrow/AIM-9M armed APG-65 equipped A/B model Hornets we were flying at that time...

Not so much now perhaps compared to the HUG Bugs, but the C/D's are essentially what the HUG BUGS have become (minus the EW kit which still has to be fitted).

APG-73, AMRAAM / JDAM / JSOW software capability, digitial colour moving map displays, integrated EW system etc in-service anywhere up to 10 years before the HUG BUGS will receive the same sort of capability is a tad more than a  simple"decoupled" office...

Which they ALSO featured... :)
 
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Lawman       3/23/2008 8:11:27 AM

Another possibility, thinking a little more abstractly would have been the acquisition of ex-USAF KC-135Rs, with their CFM-56s - these would have been fit for service for many years to come. These could have been affordable, and boosted the capabilities of the combat force, no matter what fighter/strike aircraft is bought. With the retirement of the F-111s in the '90s, there would certainly be a need for greater strike capability than can be offered by the Hornets. The best bet probably being the F-15E, or possibly the Tornado GR-4, probably using the AGM-84 SLAM for stand-off strike (rather than the AGM-142 Popeye).

One question that might be worth asking would be whether the AGM-86 could have been made compatible with the F-15E - it is very heavy, tipping the scales at 4,300lbs in the blast frag version, with a huge warhead. A force of 50 F-15Es would have been sufficient to form two full squadrons, plus a training/test flight; these would have been capable of long range semi-unescorted strike missions. The ability to carry a pair of ALCMs would have made them very much a long range strike force - (or even the air-launched Tomahawk, for commonality with Navy Tomahawks on Collins?) - thousands of kilometres potential strike range.

 
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