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Subject: Should Australia raise a MARINE Battalion.....
BLUIE006    12/25/2006 1:36:12 AM
There is an gap in Australias defence capability that I have never understood ....... WE have do Marines.... we have alot of water .. I propose making a Marine battalion.....similar to Royal Marines 1000-2000 strong I know people are going crap on about staffing issues etc etc If we could raise the numbers ...do you think it would be useful ??
 
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Aussie Comms       12/25/2006 3:19:27 AM
Well, if it meant that large numbers of AFP personnel will no longer be used as a defacto para military force, in SE Asia and the Pacific, and are therefore able to remain in OZ and focus on their primary tasks at home, such as dismantling criminal networks, intercepting drug / gun trafficing, money laundering, potential terrorist groups, etc.
 
Then, i'm all for it.
 
 
I have often thought that we need a capability for "regional policing", that is more suited to the task, i.e a heavier force than the AFP, but not as heavy as the Army. So, somewhere in between the two.
 
It annoys me somewhat that the AFP gets a lot of this burden put on their shoulders, it is not their role, and they have far better things to do at home.
 
 
 
So, maybe a "Marine like" force for regional policing is one option
 
 
 
 
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DropBear       12/25/2006 9:51:16 AM
If we could raise the numbers ...do you think it would be useful ??
 
Why, what particular beach head do you wish to storm and take?
 
We have Army batallions that do the infantry/pioneer biz. Would a dedicated marine unit be any different?
 
Where would we use them?  Downtown Baghdad?
 
Hardly need to come ashore in Fiji with marines. Helo in Diggers and let them do their thing.
 
 
 
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Aussie Digger       12/25/2006 9:52:35 AM

Well, if it meant that large numbers of AFP personnel will no longer be used as a defacto para military force, in SE Asia and the Pacific, and are therefore able to remain in OZ and focus on their primary tasks at home, such as dismantling criminal networks, intercepting drug / gun trafficing, money laundering, potential terrorist groups, etc.

 

Then, i'm all for it.

 


 

I have often thought that we need a capability for "regional policing", that is more suited to the task, i.e a heavier force than the AFP, but not as heavy as the Army. So, somewhere in between the two.

 

It annoys me somewhat that the AFP gets a lot of this burden put on their shoulders, it is not their role, and they have far better things to do at home.

 


 

 

So, maybe a "Marine like" force for regional policing is one option

 

 

 


And what does the Army say about that? They are NOT good at what are essentially policing operations and civilian police SHOULD do the role. There IS a "heavier" force between Army and police, it's known as the ORT and if you think this force should be "self-deployable" with it's own transport assets, logistical support etc, than that's your business. All it would achieve in my opinion is an unncessary duplication of assets with a resulting LOWER base of skills and money to go around.

The majority of AFP's "capability" as far as the International Deployment Group goes, is made up from civilian State police. You are correct the AFP doesn't itself have the capability to do this job, but it is ALREADY extent in Australia and is being employed successfully.

An Army is NOT a police force, nor is a marine unit.

Army already has a "de facto" Marine unit in 2RAR. 2RAR despite it's "ready battalion group" responsibilities (shared with 1RAR) conduct far more "amphibious" training than does any other battalion in Army. 1RAR likewise conducts more air mobile (ie: helo assault) based training than any other battalion.

Unfortunately Bluie, staffing is only the start, financing is FAR more important. Army is limited in a lot of areas because of it's small size. RAN and RAAF are the same.

Army CAN generate significant  amphibious assault capability right now. This ability will increase with new projects such as MRH-90, LHD's, improved amphibious watercraft and (possibly) additional Chinooks. Additional light infantry battalions (such as 3RAR) within 3 Brigade will mean that the "ready battalion group" responsibility can be shared between more units (it has a VERY significant impact on the capabilities that can be generated by 3 Brigade because of the training requirements for a "high readiness" deployable battalion). This sharing of the responsibility means that 3 Brigade can focus on providing more capability in a variety of areas and Amphibious warfare is a big one that will improve over the next 5 or so years.

Specwarops (4RAR and 1 Cmdo in particular) ALSO provide significant capability options WRT Amphibious  operations.

Does ADF need a dedicated Marine unit? I doubt it and the list of capabilities that ARE required, yet do not exist within ADF is as long as your arm. It 's not worth getting too emotional about it in my view...



 
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Yimmy       12/25/2006 9:53:32 AM
1000-2000 men is more like 2-4 battalions.

Does Australia have any naval infantry at the moment, or are your ship boarding parties et al armed sailors?

I don't think you need a marine battalion personally, you already have a commando battalion.  But I expect it would be a good idea to as standard train one of your light role infantry battalions in the RAR in amphibious landings.  Give them a 4-6 week course in it after their infantry course or something.  Running off a landing craft or jumping off a rigid-raider and assaulting up a beach isn't exactly rocket science, but it would be handy having a battalion well versed in it.  You are getting a new LPD or two arn't you?


 
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stingray1003       12/25/2006 5:08:06 PM
I think its definately a option that should be concidered.
 
 The two canberra class ships are going to open up options that were never avalible to us before. Landing troops from heavy lift helos and from amphibious beaches, with a larger sea based operational centre.
 
 Restructuring the force around them will also ensure that they get replaced/upgraded and possibily supplimented with a third one if it looks like they are incredibly useful some time later.  
 
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BLUIE006       12/25/2006 9:41:20 PM
The other possiblity  is  that  we  create  a  smaller more  elite  SBS  Unit
200-500 men
 
Our  SAS  has its hand full with Long Range  PAtrol,  Counter terrorist  operations---
 
SBS   would  free them  up  to  do  what they do best ,
 
 
 
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Volkodav       12/26/2006 12:17:22 AM
Maybe we could kill two birds with one stone, create a new combined AFP and ADF tactical operations unit with personnel rotating through it from their parent organisations and then back again.  ADF exposure to experienced police together with the additional specialist training they would receive as part of any posting to this unit would be of great value to the ADF when the personnel rotate out after X number of years.
Rather than just Infantry, MP's and Int would also contribute personnel to this unit.  I imagine this would go a long way to fixing many of the issues raised recently over the level of skill of the ADF in policing and investigations.  It would also give ADF members who are in less glamorous roles the chance to do something different and contribute in a more active role that is usually left to RAINF, RAAC etc....
 
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Archer 155mm       12/26/2006 3:53:47 AM
1.It is quite feasible for a small Infantry unit to exist in the RAN. The Air Field Defence Guards number slightly less than a thousand in the RAAF .

On the other hand:
2. There is probably no operational reason to create them. Forming an extra Infantry Battalion in the Army focusing on Amphibious operations would be much simpler.



On the other hand:
3. The creation of a Royal Australian Marines (The RAMs)would probably be a fantastic recruiting measure. Many who would not consider joining the Army might be attracted by the Marines.  In the same way that the 4RAR Direct recruiting scheme was a big success, in attracting recruits who might not have considered a conventional Army career.
 
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Kevin Pork       12/26/2006 4:17:30 AM

The other possiblity  is  that  we  create  a  smaller more  elite  SBS  Unit

200-500 men

 Our  SAS  has its hand full with Long Range  PAtrol,  Counter terrorist  operations---

 SBS   would  free them  up  to  do  what they do best ,


I don't see the point. we already have that with the SASR water ops Sqn, it would just be duplication and would cut into the available pool of special forces grade troops.
 
(I really hate the 'quote' system here)
 
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Archer 155mm       12/26/2006 5:55:41 AM
Just to get an idea of what might be feasible, does anyone know the size and structure of the Marines in other mid sized Western nations.  For example the Dutch have similiar sized Armed forces to Australia, how are their Marines organised?
 
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