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Subject: The Long Tan Myth
aussiechick    12/7/2006 7:20:30 PM
One of the many things I learned from 2UE Shock-jock John Laws was never to trust Historian's, Journalist or TV Presenter's with the truth - there is always another side of the story ! For many years, I beleived everything that was written by Author Lex McAulay, and budding historian Terry Burstall, about the exploits of D/6RAR on that fateful day 18 August 1966. On reflection,and as a result of my own War experience, I began researching the subject - reading reports of proponents and antagonist alike. Here are some of my misgivings. More then half McA's book was made up of Journalistic hypothesis of what the VC, NVA may have ruminated about. These assumptions have never been ratified, nor validated by Aust War Memorial/museum or any credible entity. McA should have warned reader's it was a piece of speculative Fiction. Burstall, on the other hand is at least honest, even though he exaggerates in some chapters. Like McA, he stated he did 3 tours of VN which to an onlooker suggests he was engaged in military operations over an extraordinary 36 months ? He dosen't mention he was working with the ABC on a documentary ( vested interest ) which was aired last year on TV. Overall, his books are regarded with a degree of skepticism. The village of Xa Long Tan, one of 13 villages in the district of Phuoc Tuy Province, from whence it is alleged a few VC combatants emerged to join D445 Battalion - was subjected to intense US Air strikes on 18/19. Another example of ' shock-an-awe 'tactics on civilians. Was there a body count or burial party detail to collect elderly men, women and children and fittingly given a Christian burial ? Were they compensated ? Did anybody bother to check ? They were CIVILIANS ! Iraq's War, boast 655,000 civilians kia and still counting ? Whatever else is said, this is a crime against HUMANITY ! Practically the whole of S E Vietnam was sprayed with herbicide Defoliant Agent Orange. Roughly 19 million gals of 50/50 Dioxin 2,4,D and 2,4,5,T made up of 15 highly poisonous dinoxol, trinoxol, diquat etc.. were indiscriminately sprayed the length and breath of Indochina. Oz Vet Affr's launched an inquiry into the suffering of Vet's and families, seeking answers to why third generation offspring are still suffering deformaties, chronic cardio/vascular problems, abnormalities, cancer ? Aust servicemen and women were inadvertently exposed to USAF A 123 Providor a/c aerial spraying Programme. The devastation to foliage and vegetation was appalling. The civilian Population at the time numbered 35 million. Time Magazine quote 1.5 million Vietnamese victim's of the War. Have the number-counter's put a figure on Orange victims ? sorry, to be continued .
 
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southern cross       12/7/2006 7:29:36 PM


On reflection,and as a result of my own War experience,

What unit, and exactly where?
 
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Matty       12/7/2006 7:29:59 PM
How many Viet Vets do you know? any from Long Tan?

What war service do you have?

 
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TAC II       12/7/2006 7:38:22 PM
'Shock and awe' is a doctrine, not a tactic.
 
Is this some kind of 4GW?
 
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Kevin Pork       12/7/2006 8:08:09 PM
"Was there a body count or burial party detail to collect elderly men, women and children and fittingly given a Christian burial ? "
 
another example of your fantastic research skills? Christianity was at best a minority religion in Vietnam (around 10%) - why would you take a 90% chance of offending local customs?
 
 
"Iraq's War, boast 655,000 civilians kia and still counting ? " oh dear, most people choose to conduct their education in private, I'd suggest you do a little bit of reading on just how comprehensively that Lancet inspired figure has been discredited and ridiculed before you quote it in future.
 
As I recall your original tirade on these boards involved (aside from a great deal of incoherent gibbering) some accusations of backstabbing or not backing the military, to date you seem to be the main one doing that.
 
Enjoy your career in fast food service.
 
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Aussie Digger       12/7/2006 11:31:36 PM

How many Viet Vets do you know? any from Long Tan?

What war service do you have?


She claims she is an "Iraq vet" and is suffering from PTSD from her experiences...

She is nothing but a troll trying to get a rise out of people.
 
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AdvanceAustralia    Rubbish   12/8/2006 2:44:07 AM
aussiechick, I've read both McAulay and Burstall and what you have said above is a total fabrication.

I doubt very much you have had war experience given the disrespect you show to real veterans. Your attitude is very disppointing.

What's your point?

 
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gf0012-aust       12/8/2006 5:00:16 AM

aussiechick, I've read both McAulay and Burstall and what you have said above is a total fabrication.

I doubt very much you have had war experience given the disrespect you show to real veterans. Your attitude is very disppointing.


Actually, if you go through all "her" prev posts, you'll find a littany of errors in not only factual accuracy, but also terminology.
The warning signs were triggered by:
 
"It seems I have ruffled the old boy's club, particularly the Aust Defence Assn, chaired by Neil James and coy. That his views are so myopic and his logic staggering to the extreme - speaks volumes. Duntroon, War College and VN exdigger, his gender bias and hatred is so profound, that for anyone who would dare challenge his egomania and omnipotency on subjects related to Defence which is contrary to the prevailing dogma is condemned. Finito. Possibly relegated to Guantanamo, where me thinks his public view of David Hick's is shared by ( drop-bear ) (Aust digger) and all those wannabees who claim to champion his Christian Military spiel. G forbid !"

when you can't get some basic facts right, like,  multiple back to backs, on site residences, general disresepct to those blokes from ET who did suffer from PTSD when they were witness to persistent acts of brutality (usually with a machete), that it's not James with the christian military spiel - (and the individual with christian beliefs doesn't talk about them in public anyway) - then you follow up by adding in a smattering of terminology that is out of place but used by other militaries - then you've got to wonder "who's hiding behind the green door?"
Finally, galloping incoherence is always a good sign of a damaged idealogue masquerading as a vehicle of social conscience......
 
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aussiechick    Long Tan Myth. Episode II   12/10/2006 12:18:07 AM
Att: To those who really should know better ?
 
Respect is EARNED !
 
Royalty, privilege, rank is an anachronism reminiscent of the 'dark ages'.One has to 'do the hard yakka' before alluding to it's principles.Don't go preaching puerile gratituous gobblegook ever again.
 
These days of Enlightment - Education, thoughtful analysis, mistrust of Academia, sanitised Oz History, our moribund xenophobic RSL ( tyrannosaurus rex) Politicians, real estate/used car salesmen, P Hanson etc the secular iconic pyramid is now open slather, boys ! Get used to it.
 
" Rent-a-crowd Inc " the enterprising Oz firm which supplies crowds for all occasions.It has done so much to keep progressive causes in the Public eye. !
 
To those who seek " Enlightment', acquaint oneself with " International Humanitarian Treaties & Documents. Convention (iii) Articles 2,3,4 etc. For those with an enquiring mind " International Conferance of the Red Cross " - conventions (iv) Protection of Civilian Person's in Time of War. For absolute bonza reading - Geneva Conventions. Ad hoc.
 
Breaches of crime's against Humanity can get you 120 years at Fort Lavenworth.
 
Indisputably, one of the World's Greatest Military genius's FM Erwin Rommel of the Afrika Corp - master Tactician. Extract's from "The trail of the Fox" quote: ..the science of War does not only consist of Military Science such as Tactics, strategy, logistics, but includes Military Policy, objectives, psychological economics..( winning the heart's and mind's of the locals )
 
In retrospect, Long Tan's "Operation Smithfield" was an unmitigated disaster when it came to PSYWAR -or misnomer " Civil Aid Programme". A  DFAT initiative, inappropriately named. Few people were even aware of it's existance.
 
Digger's lexicon: "Explanation sans pictorial images.Read: " Primary purpose of influencing opinions, emotions, attitudes and behaviours of hostile foreign groups in such away as to support the achievement of National objectives " Plain language: spreading rumors, hoaxes and wild stories !
 
Ironically, this epitomises the generally heavily censored media espousal of Long Tan saga in 66.
 
If, in essence the fiasco was rigi-dig, why did it take eight long excruciating months for President Lyndon Johnson to award the Presidential Citation ??
 
Next episode: 1. Intelligence (G2) blunder
                       2. Logistic blunder
                        3. V C Body count exaggeration
                           4. Strategy & Tactics
 
to be continued.
 
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gf0012-aust       12/10/2006 1:09:36 AM

In retrospect, Long Tan's "Operation Smithfield" was an unmitigated disaster when it came to PSYWAR -or misnomer " Civil Aid Programme". A  DFAT initiative, inappropriately named. Few people were even aware of it's existance.

you do realise that DFAT didn't exist during the Aust presence in Vietnam, let alone Long Tan?
The "Hearts and Minds" philosophy was the vehicle of opportunity that Sir Garfield Barwick proposed for the AATTV.  That model was philosophically identical  to the models proposed by the British who were actively considering entering at a combat but "non combative" role (ie, provide specialist trainers and troops as per AATTV's "mandate". 
 
SGB's views were formed up in 1959 and 1961 with respect  to Australia dealing with Laos.  Vietnam was seen as an extension of the Laos dilemna. SGB was also isolated by Menzies and hasluck - but in the end accepted the H&M model that was the trigger to establishing AATTV
 
I'm curious as to your sources.


 
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Kevin Pork       12/10/2006 2:36:43 AM

Att: To those who really should know better ?

 

Respect is EARNED !

 

 rank is an anachronism reminiscent of the 'dark ages'.

to be continued.

Yes, respect is earned. you haven't earned any.
Without rank, how exactly do you think armed forces will work? be specific (I couldn't be bothered picking apart the rest of your twaddle).
 
and oh yes, please do continue, a laugh is always appreciated.
 
BTW, would you mind upsizing my fries dear?

 
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