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Subject: A bit of history: 3 July 1988: The Downing of Iranian Flight 655 by USS Vincennes
tjkhan    7/2/2006 5:25:02 PM
I will not make any editorial comment on this event, instead simply quoting from Wikipedia: "Iran Air Flight 655 (IR655) was a commercial flight operated by Iran Air that flew from Bandar Abbas, Iran to Dubai. On July 3, 1988, the airplane flying IR655 was shot down by the U.S. Navy guided missile cruiser USS Vincennes between Bandar Abbas and Dubai, killing all 290 passengers and crew aboard, including 38 non-Iranians and 66 children. The plane, an Airbus A300B2, registered as EP-IBU and flown by captain Mohsen Rezaian, left Bandar Abbas at 10:17 am Iran time (UTC+0330), 27 minutes after its scheduled departure time of 9:50 am. It would have been a 28-minute flight. After takeoff, it was directed by the Bandar Abbas tower to turn on its transponder and proceed over the Persian Gulf. The flight was assigned routinely to commercial air corridor Amber 59, a twenty-mile-wide lane on a direct line to Dubai airport. The short distance made for a simple flight pattern: climb to 14,000 feet (about 4300 m), cruise for a short time, and descend into Dubai. At that same time, the Vincennes, under the command of Captain William C. Rogers III and fitted with the then-new AEGIS combat system, was nearby in the Strait of Hormuz. The Vincennes had been rushed to the area after the April 14 mining of the USS Samuel B. Roberts by Iranian forces. Iran had purchased Silkworm missiles from China, and an AEGIS cruiser was the only type of vessel that could counter the threat. Roberts had been operating in the Persian Gulf as part of Operation Earnest Will, the effort to protect Kuwaiti oil tankers during the Iran-Iraq War. On the morning of July 3, the Vincennes crossed into Iranian territorial waters during clashes with Iranian gunboats. The USS Sides (FFG-14) and USS Elmer Montgomery (FF-1082) were nearby."
 
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Aussiegunnerreturns    RE:A bit of history: 3 July 1988: The Downing of Iranian Flight 655 by USS Vincennes   7/3/2006 5:22:44 AM
"Greatest Air Disasters" had an episode on this event a couple of months ago. Apparently the Vincennes' crew was distracted while engaging Iranian gun boats that were hitting a Pakistani tanker at the time and mistook the airliner for an F-14 as it approached. Other factors were that, 1. there were F-14's operating from the same airfield as the airline, so the ship picked up one of their IFF's from exactly the same direction as the airliner came from. 2. the airliner was an hour late so it wasn't in the log of scheduled flights that the ship had on board. 3. The crew member looking at the radar scope experienced some sort of psychological phenomenon that occurs during periods of high stress, where the sailor thought that the worse possible outcome(in this case that the aircraft diving into attack, while it was actually strait and level), appear to be occuring. 4. The ship also wasn't equiped to communicate on civilian air freqencies, so it couldn't raise a response from the airliner. Basically as far as I can see the crew followed all the proceedures, which turned out to be deficient when they were tested in the fog of war. That happens a lot in armed forces all over the world, so I don't think they are to blame. The report made a big deal of the fact that the ship had chased the gunboats into Iranian waters, which I think was a cheap shot at the Captain. After all, the gun boats were attacking neutral shipping... personally I wouldn't have begrudged the yanks if they had sent a (conventionally armed) TLAM at their base.
 
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AussieEngineer    RE:A bit of history: 3 July 1988: The Downing of Iranian Flight 655 by USS Vincennes   7/3/2006 6:05:23 AM
I saw a documentary on it not long ago and I'd have to say I would have done exactly the same thing as the Captain of the Vincennes did. Every bit of information he recieved seemed to indicate an attacking aircraft.
 
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tjkhan    RE:A bit of history: 3 July 1988: The Downing of Iranian Flight 655 by USS Vincennes   7/3/2006 6:48:27 AM
I had decided not to publish the balance of the Wikipedia article, but for completeness, I now will. You will see that the "fog of war" scenario may have been self induced, if you are to accept some of the material in the Wikipedia article. I have to say I have difficulty with the 'it was just one of those things" approach. This was 290 people who died, .... I will say little more for fear of once again offending the all seeing and all knowing SYSOPS. Anyway, read on, I am sure everyone will have their own views on the matter: "U.S. government accounts According to U.S. government accounts, the Vincennes mistakenly identified the Iranian airplane as an attacking military fighter. The officers identified the flight profile being flown by the A300B2 as being similar to that of an Islamic Republic of Iran Air Force F-14A Tomcat during an attack run.(*) According to the same reports the Vincennes tried more than once to contact Flight 655, but there was no acknowledgement. At 10:24 am, with the civilian jet 11 nautical miles away, the Vincennes fired two SM-2ER Surface-to-air missiles. The first missile broke the aircraft in two and damaged the tailplane and right wing. After the engagement, the Vincennes' crew realized that the plane had been a civilian airliner. This version was finalized in a report by Admiral William Fogarty, entitled Formal Investigation into the Circumstances Surrounding the Downing of Iran Air Flight 655 on 3 July 1988.[1] Only parts of this report have been released (part I in 1988, part II in 1993), a fact criticized by many observers. The unclassified version of a Congressional report of a U.S. Navy investigation headed by Admiral William Fogarty did not accurately show the location of the USS Vincennes some 2 NM (4 km) inside Iranian territorial waters. (*) An Airbus A300B2 is 177 feet long (54.08 m), nearly three times as long as an F-14, which is 61 ft 9 in long (18.6 m). Analysis of the radar return's strength can tell them apart, but this is not done in a busy environment because of the time it requires. [citation needed] Independent sources Newsweek reporters John Barry and Roger Charles wrote that Rogers acted recklessly and without due care. Their report accused the U.S. government of a cover-up.[2] An analysis of the events by the International Strategic Studies Association described the deployment of an Aegis cruiser in the zone as irresponsible and felt that the expense of the ship had played a major part in the setting of a low threshold for opening fire.[3] On November 6, 2003 the International Court of Justice concluded that the U.S. Navy's actions in the Persian Gulf at the time had been unlawful. Three years after the incident, Admiral William J. Crowe admitted on Nightline that the Vincennes was inside Iranian territorial waters when it launched the missiles.[4] This contradicted earlier Navy claims. Captain David Carlson, commander of the USS Sides, the warship stationed nearby the Vincennes at the time of the incident, is reported (Fisk, 2005) to have said that the destruction of the aircraft "marked the horrifying climax to Captain Rogers' aggressiveness, first seen four weeks ago" - referring to incidents on June 2, when Rogers had sailed the Vincennes too close to an Iranian frigate undertaking a lawful search of a bulk carrier, launched a helicopter within 2-3 miles (3.2-4.8 km) of an Iranian small craft despite rules of engagement requiring a four-mile (6.4 km) separation, and opened fire on a number of small Iranian military boats. Of those incidents, Carlson commented, "Why do you want an Aegis cruiser out there shooting up boats? It wasn't a smart thing to do." At the time of Rogers' announcement to higher command that he was going to shoot down the plane, Carlson is reported (Fisk, 2005) to have been thunderstruck: "I said to folks around me, 'Why, what the hell is he doing?' I went through the drill again. F-14. He's climbing. By now this damn thing is at 7,000 feet." However, Carlson thought the Vincennes might have more information, and was unaware that Rogers had been wrongly informed that the plane was diving. Radio frequencies Throughout its final flight IR655 was in radio contact with various air traffic control services using standard civil aviation frequencies, and had spoken in English to Bandar Abbas Approach Control seconds before the Vincennes launched its missiles. The Vincennes at that time had no equipment suitable for monitoring civil aviation frequencies, other than the International Air Distress frequency. Subsequently U.S. Navy warships in the area were equipped with dialable VHF radios, and access to flight plan information was sought, to better track commercial airliners. The official ICAO report stated that 10 attempts were made to contact Iran Air 655, seven on military frequencies, three on commercial frequencies and addressed to the supposed "Iranian F-14". Possibly relevant fac
 
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bigfella    RE:A bit of history: 3 July 1988: The Downing of Iranian Flight 655 by USS Vincennes   7/3/2006 8:06:00 AM
What always fascinated me about this was the difference between it & the flight 007 tragedy. That was taken as more proof of the absolute evil of the USSR. The Reagan Admin made it clear that the shooting down of that flight could only have been a deliberate act of mass murder. Of course, they failed to mention the US spy plane that had overflown the same area less that 1 hour before, or that it is exceptionally hard to tell exactly what aircraft is what at night. There was also little mention that the area was one of extreme military sensitivity where it was not unusual for either US spy planes to fly over or even US carrier aircraft to feign attacks (I don't recall the exact name for it) to test Soviet response times. As in the Gulf, this was an area where everyone was on edge. In the end the downing of flight 007 was the result of the errors of even fewer people than flight 665. Essentially a couple of pilots & ground controllers under pressure. Of course, the Soviets were 'evil', the Americans 'mistaken'. Guess it all depends where you stand. Funny how little some things about the world change. You'd think some people would learn. I've tried to
 
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Aussiegunnerreturns    RE:A bit of history: 3 July 1988: The Downing of Iranian Flight 655 by USS Vincennes - BF   7/3/2006 8:44:00 AM
"What always fascinated me about this was the difference between it & the flight 007 tragedy. That was taken as more proof of the absolute evil of the USSR. The Reagan Admin made it clear that the shooting down of that flight could only have been a deliberate act of mass murder." There are some similarities between the two scenarios, but they are pretty vague. An individual spy plane flying around the edge of a superpower's airspace cannot be construed to be an immediate threat to life or limb, in the same way as an aircraft directly approaching a warship in a warzone. The justification for taking an a shot at all is highly debateable and is non-existant without visual ID. Do you really think that it would be too much of an ask for an SU-15 to fly by and eyeball a lumbering airliner/spyplane before shooting? In contrast, the sailors in the Persian gulf who were protecting neutral shipping from unprovoked aggression, thought that their arse's were on the line. I've never had my arse on the line like that, but I'm pretty sure that it would encourage you to make a quick decision where mistakes might happen. As for Reagan's propaganda about the "evil" Soviets, so what? Government's demonise their strategic opponents for doing things that are similar in some respects to their own actions all the time... whoopie frickin' doo. He didn't win the Gulf war by always being nice you know, just like we aren't going to win this current conflagration by having a love-in with the radical Muslims.
 
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southern cross    RE:A bit of history: 3 July 1988: The Downing of Iranian Flight 655 by USS Vincennes - BF   7/3/2006 8:54:23 AM
And lets not forget that at the exact moment of the incident the Vincennes was engaged against Iranian vessels, so the possibility of being attacked from the air was a very real one. As far as I know the Soviet planes were not fighting another battle simultaneously. I'm not trying to say the Americans mistake was not as great or not as tragic, I am just trying to put the supposed similarities into context.
 
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Aussiegunnerreturns    RE:A bit of history: 3 July 1988: The Downing of Iranian Flight 655 by USS Vincennes - TJ   7/3/2006 9:01:49 AM
"I have to say I have difficulty with the 'it was just one of those things" approach. This was 290 people who died, ...." So do I. I have great difficulty accepting that the Iranians put their own citizens at risk in such a way by attacking neutral shipping (from a fellow Muslim nation, Pakistan) and the US warships that were protecting it. I have difficulty with the Iranian airline sending its plane through a warzone, that was partially of its own countries making. I have difficulty accepting an article from an online encyclopedia that anybody can update as being credible, especially when it is referenced with such informed and unbiased sources as a couple of newsweek reporters and "Fisk, 2005". I have difficulty accepting the critisism of a US sea captain who comes out and bags one of his collegues, when he didn't have the brains to send one radio call over questioning why his collegue was going to shoot down an aircraft flying at over 7000feet(a bit of guilt or arse covering perhaps?). I have difficulty with the obsessive drive of some people to critisise the US for everything it has done, even when it is patently obvious that what it was doing at that time was protecting lives of people from many countries and ensuring global economic security by ensuring that the Persian gulf states could continue to sell their oil, and the rest of the world could continue to buy it. Nope, it wasn't just one of those things. It was all about the bunch of psychopaths running Iran playing war games and getting lots of people killed in the process.
 
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tjkhan    RE:A bit of history: 3 July 1988: The Downing of Iranian Flight 655 by USS Vincennes - TJ   7/3/2006 4:47:54 PM
Aussiegunnerreturns said: "I have difficulty with the obsessive drive of some people to critisise the US for everything it has done, even when it is patently obvious that what it was doing at that time was protecting lives of people from many countries and ensuring global economic security by ensuring that the Persian gulf states could continue to sell their oil, and the rest of the world could continue to buy it. Nope, it wasn't just one of those things. It was all about the bunch of psychopaths running Iran playing war games and getting lots of people killed in the process." The hyperbole is just grand, but adds little to the discussion. It is true that the shoot down occured at a time of heightened tensions, no doubt about that, but that plane was shot down...prima facie that's a big problem. Additionally, it now seems clear either or both of the Sides and/or Vincennes were maneuvering in Iranian territorial waters....another problem I think. What else...contrary to your assertion, this was not a "war zone"...no state of war existed. The US had issued various warnings, but that, from any perspective did not absolve the US of responsibility...it's like standing in the middle of a car park and saying "I have a gun, anyone who moves is dead". There is no defence available to a subsequent shooting in "well I told them I would shoot". At the end of the day the question to be answered is whether the ROEs operating at that time were appropriate, and I have to say, in busy airspace over the Gulf, they appear not to have been. If you have difficulty with this, go to the congressional sources, some of which are available on line, and see what you then think. Naturally, I accept that you and others may not share my disquite over this incident, but don't serve up the "you're just bashing the US line", it really does become tiresome.
 
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tjkhan    RE:A bit of history: 3 July 1988: The Downing of Iranian Flight 655 by USS Vincennes - TJ   7/3/2006 5:09:35 PM
Recognising that I am responding in a sense to my own thread, I should just note your earlier comments, which were: Aussiegunnerreturns "Other factors were that, 1. there were F-14's operating from the same airfield as the airline, so the ship picked up one of their IFF's from exactly the same direction as the airliner came from. 2. the airliner was an hour late so it wasn't in the log of scheduled flights that the ship had on board. 3. The crew member looking at the radar scope experienced some sort of psychological phenomenon that occurs during periods of high stress, where the sailor thought that the worse possible outcome(in this case that the aircraft diving into attack, while it was actually strait and level), appear to be occuring. 4. The ship also wasn't equiped to communicate on civilian air freqencies, so it couldn't raise a response from the airliner." Now assuming your summary of the show is correct (and I no reason to doubt what you say) then surely it points to at least part of the problem...the crew were not equiped to operating in a low intensity conslict environnment, particlulary when combined with high air traffic. That said, there are a couple of points I should add: 1) The assumption that the plane was one hour late may be incorrect. The ships clock was apparently set to Bahrain time, which is not the same as Iranian time, 2) The schedules the Americamns were working off were for scheduled departure times (that is the time leave the departure gate), not takeoff times (wheels leaving the ground)...just what difference that makes to the actual time that makes I am not certain, In that respect I will quote from some of Admiral Fogarty's evidence to Congress on this issue: "A few comments are in order with regard to commercial airline schedules in relation to deconfliction: Flights could vary from appointed times by taking off early or late (the latter being more likely), or by the addition of unscheduled flights. Most important, however, a flight schedule covering a joint military/civilian airfield it nearly useless in a tactical situation where the sortie of military aircraft on a combat mission would be made without regard to scheduled airline traffic, or use scheduled airline departure times for tactical cover. Therefore, I did not consider the issue of commercial airline schedules germane to the Vincennes investigation. It has been said that there were six critical fundamental considerations to the incident that then CO of Vincennes could neither control nor discount: Vincennes was engaged in intense surface action with Iranian gunboats. The unidentified assumed hostile contact had taken off from an airfield used by military aircraft. The flight was heading directly at Vincennes and its range was relentlessly closing. The unknown aircraft radiated no definitive radar emissions. Vincennes warnings went unacknowledged and unanswered. The compression of time gave him an extremely short decision window, less than 5 minutes. Additionally, it was only prudent for Captain Rogers to assume that the contact was related to his engagement with the Iranian boats until proven otherwise ? the proof never came." What is prudent for a Commander to "assume" in the heat of battle does not relieve those who set the ROEs and placed the ship and crew in that environment of responsibility.
 
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MustangFlyer    RE:A bit of history: 3 July 1988: The Downing of Iranian Flight 655 by USS Vincennes - TJ   7/3/2006 10:03:21 PM
Not to forget that the US was there to protect Iraqi tankers.That was back when he was 'our boy' and the good guy. Wikipedia as well: The Tanker War and U.S. entanglement Upon invading Iran on 22 September 1980, then-Iraqi President Saddâm Hussein boasted he would be in Tehran in 3 days.The United States had been wary of the Tehran regime since the Iranian Revolution, not least because of the detention of its Tehran embassy staff in the 1979?81 Iran hostage crisis. Starting in 1982 with Iranian success on the battlefield, the U.S. made its backing of Iraq more pronounced, supplying it with intelligence, economic aid, normalizing relations with the government (broken during the 1967 Six-Day War), and also supplying weapons [1]. Starting in 1981, both Iran and Iraq attacked oil tankers and merchant ships, including those of neutral nations, in an effort to deprive the opponent of trade. After repeated Iraqi attacks on Iran's main exporting facility on Khark Island, Iran attacked a Kuwaiti tanker near Bahrain on May 13, 1984, and a Saudi tanker in Saudi waters on May 16. Attacks on ships of noncombatant nations in the Persian Gulf sharply increased thereafter, and this phase of the war was dubbed the "Tanker War." Lloyd's of London, a British insurance market, estimated that the Tanker War damaged 546 commercial vessels and killed about 430 civilian mariners. The largest of attacks were directed by Iran against Kuwaiti vessels, and on November 1, 1986, Kuwait formally petitioned foreign powers to protect its shipping. The Soviet Union agreed to charter tankers starting in 1987, and the United States offered to provide protection for tankers flying the U.S. flag on March 7, 1987 (Operation Earnest Will and Operation Prime Chance). Under international law, an attack on such ships would be treated as an attack on the U.S., allowing the U.S. to retaliate militarily. This support would protect ships headed to Iraqi ports, effectively guaranteeing Iraq's revenue stream for the duration of the war. An Iraqi plane accidentally attacked the USS Stark (FFG 31), a Perry class frigate on May 17, killing 37 and injuring 21.[2] But U.S. attention was on isolating Iran; it criticized Iran's mining of international waters, and sponsored UN Security Council Resolution 598, which passed unanimously on July 20, under which it skirmished with Iranian forces. In October 1987, the U.S. attacked Iranian oil platforms in retaliation for an Iranian attack on the U.S.-flagged tanker Sea Isle City.[3] On April 14, 1988, the frigate USS Samuel B. Roberts was badly damaged by an Iranian mine. U.S. forces responded with Operation Praying Mantis on April 18, the United States Navy's largest engagement of surface warships since World War II. Two Iranian ships were destroyed, and an American helicopter was shot down, killing the two pilots.[4] In the course of these escorts by the U.S. Navy, the cruiser USS Vincennes shot down Iran Air Flight 655 with the loss of all 290 passengers and crew on July 3, 1988. The American government claimed that the airliner had been mistaken for an Iranian F-14 Tomcat, and that the Vincennes was operating in international waters at the time and feared that it was under attack. The Iranians, however, maintain that the Vincennes was in fact in Iranian territorial waters, and that the Iranian passenger jet was turning away and increasing altitude after take-off. U.S. Admiral William J. Crowe also admitted on Nightline that the Vincennes was inside Iranian territorial waters when it launched the missiles.[5] . The U.S. eventually paid compensation for the incident but never apologised.
 
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