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Subject: The Fifteen Decisive Battles of the World: your thoughts?
tjkhan    6/20/2006 6:35:20 AM
Today is the anniverary of the Battle of Chalon in 451 when Flavius Aetius achieved a victory over Attila the Hun. In looking at the battle on Wikipedia I went to another page which discussed a booked entitled "The Fifteen decisive Battles of the World" by Sir Edward Shepherd Creasy. Below is the entry in Wikipedia: "The Fifteen Decisive Battles of the World: from Marathon to Waterloo is a book written by Sir Edward Shepherd Creasy and published in 1851. This book tells the story of the fifteen military engagements (from Marathon to Waterloo) which, according to the author, had a significant impact on world history. Chapters The Battle of Gaugamela The Battle of Tours The Siege of Orleans The Spanish Armada The Battle of Poltava The Battle of Valmy The Battle of Waterloo Each chapter of the book describes a different battle. The fifteen chapters are: The Battle of Marathon, 490 BC Excerpt: Two thousand three hundred and forty years ago, a council of Athenian Officers was summoned on the slope of one of the mountains that look over the plain of Marathon, on the eastern coast of Attica. The immediate subject of their meeting was to consider whether they should give battle to an enemy that lay encamped on the shore beneath them; but on the result of their deliberations depended, not merely the fate of two armies, but the whole future progress of human civilization. Defeat of the Athenians at Syracuse, 413 BC Known as the Battle of Syracuse. Excerpt: Few cities have undergone more memorable sieges during ancient and mediaeval times than has the city of Syracuse. The Battle of Arbela, 331 BC Also called the Battle of Gaugamela. Excerpt: ... the ancient Persian empire, which once menaced all the nations of the earth with subjection, was irreparably crushed when Alexander had won his crowning victory at Arbela. The Battle of the Metaurus, 207 BC Excerpt: That battle was the determining crisis of the contest, not merely between Rome and Carthage, but between the two great families of the world... Victory of Arminius over the Roman Legions under Varus, 9 AD Known as the Battle of the Teutoburg Forest. Excerpt: ..that victory secured at once and forever the independence of the Teutonic race. The Battle of Chalons, 451 Also called the Battle of the Catalaunian Fields or the Battle of the Catalun. Excerpt: The victory which the Roman general, Aëtius, with his Gothic allies, had then gained over the Huns, was the last victory of imperial Rome. The Battle of Tours, 732 Also called the Battle of Poitiers. Excerpt: the great victory won by Charles Martel ... gave a decisive check to the career of Arab conquest in Western Europe, rescued Christendom from Islam, [and] preserved the relics of ancient and the germs of modern civilization... The Battle of Hastings, 1066 Excerpt: ..no one who appreciates the influence of England and her empire upon the destinies of the world will ever rank that victory as one of secondary importance. Joan of Arc's Victory over the English at Orléans, 1429 Known as the Siege of Orléans. Excerpt: ..the struggle by which the unconscious heroine of France, in the beginning of the fifteenth century, rescued her country from becoming a second Ireland under the yoke of the triumphant English. Defeat of the Spanish Armada, 1588 Excerpt: The England of our own days is so strong, and the Spain of our own days is so feeble, that it is not easy, without some reflection and care, to comprehend the full extent of the peril which England then ran from the power and the ambition of Spain, or to appreciate the importance of that crisis in the history of the world. The Battle of Blenheim, 1704 Excerpt: Had it not been for Blenheim, all Europe might at this day suffer under the effect of French conquests resembling those of Alexander in extent and those of the Romans in durability. The Battle of Pultowa, 1709 Also called the Battle of Poltava. Excerpt: The decisive triumph of Russia over Sweden at Pultowa was therefore all-important to the world, on account of what it overthrew as well as for what it established Victory of the Americans over Burgoyne at Saratoga, 1777 Known as the Battle of Saratoga. Excerpt: The ancient Roman boasted, with reason, of the growth of Rome from humble beginnings to the greatest magnitude which the world had then ever witnessed. But the citizen of the United States is still more justly entitled to claim this praise. The Battle of Valmy, 1792 Excerpt: ..the kings of Europe, after the lapse of eighteen centuries, trembled once more before a conquering military republic. The Battle of Waterloo, 1815 Excerpt: The exertions which the allied powers made at this crisis to grapple promptly with the French emperor have truly been termed gigantic, and never were Napoleon's genius and activity more signally displayed than in the celerity and skill by which he brough
 
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Aussiegunnerreturns    RE:If I may be so bold - AR   6/21/2006 9:05:10 AM
I agree with the Battle of the Atlantic, not only for the reason you give but because it was instrumental in ensuring that Europe didn't remain Nazi dominated. Had it been lost the world would probably now be a much darker place. I don't know anything about the Battle of Capes, but any battle that ensured the birth of the USA is a world changer. For that reason whichever was the battle that turned the tide in the American Civil War also has to be up there, as it ensured the strength of the US to this day. Perhaps you could nominate one for me. The Battle of Tet though? I don't think it is very important. Vietnam was a big deal to Vietnam, the US and Australia, but it didn't change the course of the Cold War. As for the lesson's learned about having to have your population onside, if the people in charge of that war had read their Sun Tzu they would have seen that he said that 2000 years ago. Even the "discovery" of the role of the media wasn't a discovery at all. For example, Goebels seemed to have a pretty good grasp on the issues 30 + years before 'Nam.
 
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Aussiegunnerreturns    RE:The Fifteen Decisive Battles of the World: your thoughts?   6/21/2006 9:15:02 AM
For a battle 1400 years ago that is still having repercussions today, just look to the Battle of Badr. This was the battle where Muhammed and his Medinans first beat the Meccan's, consolodating his position on the Arabian peninsula and eventually leading him to conquor it. From there, Islamic conquorers and traders spread that religion world wide, with all the implications that we all know about.
 
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S-2    RE:The Fifteen Decisive Battles of the World: your thoughts? AGR/AR Reply GETTYSBURG   6/21/2006 5:20:03 PM
This will almost certainly get AR to weigh back in, as we had a spirited (who me?!) and actually very fun debate about Gettysburg vs. Vicksburg. Near simultaneous and definitive battles which both can be argued as decisive to southern fortunes in our Civil War. I'd also nominate Kursk. While Stalingrad marked the limit of Nazi expansion-"the end of the beginning", Von Manstein's operational riposte in the late winter-early spring, 1943 stabilized the eastern front and re-established an offensive mindset within the German Army. The German defeat at Kursk shortly following this success, however, clearly marked the "beginning of the end" for the Wehrmacht. Never again did operational or strategic concepts take the fore. Dien Bien Phu perceived world-wide as a powerful and decisive death-blow to colonialism, also deserves the previously mentioned consideration. Perhaps the argument could be made that the near simultaneous destruction of Groupement Mobile 100 further south in the central highlands has to be added to that final conclusion. Bernard Fall, who wrote so eloquently about both battles, might actually agree with the latter's inclusion.
 
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EW3    RE:S-2/AR GETTYSBURG   6/21/2006 5:26:54 PM
I have to go with Gettysburg on this. Had Lee won and consolidated he could have moved on Washington, or Baltamore, or Philadelphia or even NYC.
 
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Nichevo    RE:The Fifteen Decisive Battles of the World: your thoughts?   6/21/2006 5:26:58 PM
Uh, Lepanto? Trafalgar? Not very naval-oriented this chap.
 
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Nichevo    RE:The Fifteen ...AGR   6/21/2006 5:29:52 PM
In a bad way I suppose, how about Gallipoli? Sure upset Winston's applecart.
 
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Aussiegunnerreturns    RE:The Fifteen ...AGR   6/22/2006 3:08:50 AM
I agree that various battles on the Russian front were World changers, though I don't know enough about it to nominate a specific one like Kursk. Probably not Dien Bien Phu, because I would argue that de-colonisation would largely have happenned irrespective of the military efforts of the colonised. Definately not Gallipolli, it didn't change the course of the war and it didn't lead to any major innovations in the art of war.
 
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olive greens    RE:The Fifteen Decisive Battles of the World: your thoughts?   6/22/2006 10:36:12 AM
Aussiegunner beat me to Battle of Badr as an example of a decisive and influential battle often overlooked by most Western histories. But I will settle for Battle of Talas River. At Talas River the T'ang Army was better equipped for world conquest for its age than Alexander for his, Napoleon for his or anybody for his/her's. It was at least as systematic in conquest as middle-Rome, but at this stage it was geographically and population-wise larger than Rome ever was. It was assimilationist beyond most European's dreams {Alexander's downfall was when he commissioned half-Persian youth; Turks, Mongols, Koreans etc. all held highest commands in Chinese militaries ~ and these are ethnicities we can still differentiate, not to mention those who have been fully assimilated}. In soft-power it had powerful pull over even "as-yet-unconquered" Japan and SE Asia. At Talas River also were a tribe of recently converted Gaznavid Turks, a few enterprising Afghan bandits, a handful of Arab border guards, and a few Abbasid Caliph's Arab functionaries. And they destroyed the Chinese Army. Within a few years the Turkic tribes Chinese had planned on letting loose against the world had turned inward. T'ang capital was sacked by Uighur Turks and that was the end of that dynasty.
 
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Nichevo    RE:The Fifteen ...AGR - Gallipoli   6/22/2006 11:05:46 AM
The reason I mention it is because 1) it altered the couse of Churchill's career; with a success tied to him he might have been in power in the 30s; who knows how history could have changed were he at Munich. 2) it altered the destiny of the Middle East. A success at Gallipoli might have obsoleted the whole Lawrence of Arabia sequence and thus the Sykes-Picot divvy of the spoils among tribes X, Y and Z that has caused so much misery to the present day. Likewise, events as they proceeded empowered Ataturk with such results as we have seen.
 
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