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Subject: The Fifteen Decisive Battles of the World: your thoughts?
tjkhan    6/20/2006 6:35:20 AM
Today is the anniverary of the Battle of Chalon in 451 when Flavius Aetius achieved a victory over Attila the Hun. In looking at the battle on Wikipedia I went to another page which discussed a booked entitled "The Fifteen decisive Battles of the World" by Sir Edward Shepherd Creasy. Below is the entry in Wikipedia: "The Fifteen Decisive Battles of the World: from Marathon to Waterloo is a book written by Sir Edward Shepherd Creasy and published in 1851. This book tells the story of the fifteen military engagements (from Marathon to Waterloo) which, according to the author, had a significant impact on world history. Chapters The Battle of Gaugamela The Battle of Tours The Siege of Orleans The Spanish Armada The Battle of Poltava The Battle of Valmy The Battle of Waterloo Each chapter of the book describes a different battle. The fifteen chapters are: The Battle of Marathon, 490 BC Excerpt: Two thousand three hundred and forty years ago, a council of Athenian Officers was summoned on the slope of one of the mountains that look over the plain of Marathon, on the eastern coast of Attica. The immediate subject of their meeting was to consider whether they should give battle to an enemy that lay encamped on the shore beneath them; but on the result of their deliberations depended, not merely the fate of two armies, but the whole future progress of human civilization. Defeat of the Athenians at Syracuse, 413 BC Known as the Battle of Syracuse. Excerpt: Few cities have undergone more memorable sieges during ancient and mediaeval times than has the city of Syracuse. The Battle of Arbela, 331 BC Also called the Battle of Gaugamela. Excerpt: ... the ancient Persian empire, which once menaced all the nations of the earth with subjection, was irreparably crushed when Alexander had won his crowning victory at Arbela. The Battle of the Metaurus, 207 BC Excerpt: That battle was the determining crisis of the contest, not merely between Rome and Carthage, but between the two great families of the world... Victory of Arminius over the Roman Legions under Varus, 9 AD Known as the Battle of the Teutoburg Forest. Excerpt: ..that victory secured at once and forever the independence of the Teutonic race. The Battle of Chalons, 451 Also called the Battle of the Catalaunian Fields or the Battle of the Catalun. Excerpt: The victory which the Roman general, Aëtius, with his Gothic allies, had then gained over the Huns, was the last victory of imperial Rome. The Battle of Tours, 732 Also called the Battle of Poitiers. Excerpt: the great victory won by Charles Martel ... gave a decisive check to the career of Arab conquest in Western Europe, rescued Christendom from Islam, [and] preserved the relics of ancient and the germs of modern civilization... The Battle of Hastings, 1066 Excerpt: ..no one who appreciates the influence of England and her empire upon the destinies of the world will ever rank that victory as one of secondary importance. Joan of Arc's Victory over the English at Orléans, 1429 Known as the Siege of Orléans. Excerpt: ..the struggle by which the unconscious heroine of France, in the beginning of the fifteenth century, rescued her country from becoming a second Ireland under the yoke of the triumphant English. Defeat of the Spanish Armada, 1588 Excerpt: The England of our own days is so strong, and the Spain of our own days is so feeble, that it is not easy, without some reflection and care, to comprehend the full extent of the peril which England then ran from the power and the ambition of Spain, or to appreciate the importance of that crisis in the history of the world. The Battle of Blenheim, 1704 Excerpt: Had it not been for Blenheim, all Europe might at this day suffer under the effect of French conquests resembling those of Alexander in extent and those of the Romans in durability. The Battle of Pultowa, 1709 Also called the Battle of Poltava. Excerpt: The decisive triumph of Russia over Sweden at Pultowa was therefore all-important to the world, on account of what it overthrew as well as for what it established Victory of the Americans over Burgoyne at Saratoga, 1777 Known as the Battle of Saratoga. Excerpt: The ancient Roman boasted, with reason, of the growth of Rome from humble beginnings to the greatest magnitude which the world had then ever witnessed. But the citizen of the United States is still more justly entitled to claim this praise. The Battle of Valmy, 1792 Excerpt: ..the kings of Europe, after the lapse of eighteen centuries, trembled once more before a conquering military republic. The Battle of Waterloo, 1815 Excerpt: The exertions which the allied powers made at this crisis to grapple promptly with the French emperor have truly been termed gigantic, and never were Napoleon's genius and activity more signally displayed than in the celerity and skill by which he brough
 
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Aussiegunnerreturns    RE:The Fifteen Decisive Battles of the World: your thoughts?   6/20/2006 6:38:31 AM
This would be an excellent post for the "Armed Forces of the World" board.
 
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tjkhan    RE:The Fifteen Decisive Battles of the World: your thoughts?   6/20/2006 6:42:20 AM
Feel free. I have a positve disinclination to venture into those waters.
 
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bigfella    RE:The Fifteen Decisive Battles of the World: your thoughts?   6/20/2006 7:20:16 AM
TJ, You put your finger on the nub of the problem by pointing out the eurocentricity of the list (I'm lumping in the Yanks with Euros here for ease). Even then there are some fascinating absences. How about the victory of the Conquistadors at Tenocticlan? (I spelled that wrong) or the relevant exchange in the Opium Wars? What about a decisive battle from the wars of Liberation in Sth America? Surely Dien Bien Phu has to be there - not only did it effectively seal the fate of Vietnam, but it was one of the first times a colonized nation decisively defeated a colonizing power on its own terms - a set piece modern battle (not counting settler societies here). Beyond that there were Muslim conquests of Mesopotamia, Constantinople & India & various wars in China (Mongol conquests or Taiping Rebellion come to mind) that surely deserve a mention. Perhaps the japanese defeat of China in 1895. The problem here is that I know little about some of these wars & even less about individual battles.
 
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AussieEngineer    RE:The Fifteen Decisive Battles of the World: your thoughts?   6/20/2006 7:45:13 AM
Decisive for who is the question. I remember there was a series on ABC a few months ago about turning points in history. Points where what transpired had widespread repercussions for decades, even centuries to come was the result of a choice or action of a single person or small group of people.
 
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fall out    RE:The Fifteen Decisive Battles of the World: your thoughts?   6/20/2006 8:01:27 AM
"Points where what transpired had widespread repercussions for decades, even centuries to come was the result of a choice or action of a single person or small group of people." British War Cabinent deciding to continue the war after the fall of France in WW2 by one single vote...those few men indirectly saved the world from the most evil regime' in humanity...
 
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gf0012-aust    RE:The Fifteen Decisive Battles of the World: your thoughts?   6/20/2006 8:06:26 AM
on a contrarian note, you could argue that some of the most classical military blunders were significant event changers. eg Cannae, Carrhae, Stirling Bridge etc etc...
 
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Aussiegunnerreturns    RE:The Fifteen Decisive Battles of the World: your thoughts? TJ and Bigfella   6/20/2006 8:49:39 AM
Fair point about the AFOTW board. At least we'll get relatively balanced view here, since Australia can only claim significant involvement in about 4 contenders, ie, 1. The Battle of Hamel(The first demonstration of combined arms warfare). 2. El Alamain(Turned the tide of the German North Africa campaign. 3. The Battle of the Coral Sea(Forced the Japanese to fight overland in New Guniea, culminating in the Battles below). 4. The Kokoda Track campaign and Battle of Milne Bay(culminated in the first defeat of the Japanese Army and turned the tide of the Pacific war) Not to bad for a country that was only 41 years old by the last of those battles, hey;-).... did I miss any?
 
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AlbanyRifles    If I may be so bold   6/20/2006 9:06:39 AM
1. Americans are definitely NOT Euros!!! 2. I would add a. Tet 68.....while the VC and NVA were smashed, it caused support for the war in the US to wane. Showed how a population could drive a national government to change its foreign policy. b. The Battle of the Capes 5 SEP 1781 Defeat of ineptly lead Royal Navy fleet by a French fleet (how often did THAT happen!!) isolated Cornwallis from support which resulted in his surrender at Yorktown six weeks later. Result...USA. c. The Battles of the Atlantic (WW I & II) I put this on the list because it was the near success of the Kriegsmarine to cut off the UK in both wars which caused the Soviets to build a massive submarine fleet and defined NATO naval development fo rth next 50 years.
 
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fall out    RE:The Fifteen Decisive Battles of the World: your thoughts? TJ and Bigfella   6/21/2006 8:29:58 AM
"Not to bad for a country that was only 41 years old by the last of those battles, hey;-)" Despite the fact we technically weren't a nation for those 41 years as we didnt ratify the statute of westminster till '42... ;) "did I miss any?" '01-'03 AFL Grandfinal!! Thankgod the lions (lions being the Victorian part) beat those arrogant bas%ards of Essendon and the pure scum of Collingwood!! What about Ned Kelly sticking it up em!! ;) haha ;)
 
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fall out    RE:If I may be so bold   6/21/2006 8:38:51 AM
"a. Tet 68.....while the VC and NVA were smashed, it caused support for the war in the US to wane. Showed how a population could drive a national government to change its foreign policy." Hardly ranking in the top 15 most influential battles of ALL time but! Perhaps in half a century or more people could look back at this as very important but atm im not so sure... "c. The Battles of the Atlantic (WW I & II) I put this on the list because it was the near success of the Kriegsmarine to cut off the UK in both wars which caused the Soviets to build a massive submarine fleet and defined NATO naval development fo rth next 50 years." Didnt know that about the Soviets!! Interesting! I agree with the 2 battle of the Atlantics but, especially the 2nd one, as ambitious (and stupid) the Kaiser was he wasn't nearly as ambitious as Hitler, nor as evil...
 
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