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Subject: The Fifteen Decisive Battles of the World: your thoughts?
tjkhan    6/20/2006 6:35:20 AM
Today is the anniverary of the Battle of Chalon in 451 when Flavius Aetius achieved a victory over Attila the Hun.

In looking at the battle on Wikipedia I went to another page which discussed a booked entitled "The Fifteen decisive Battles of the World" by Sir Edward Shepherd Creasy. Below is the entry in Wikipedia:

"The Fifteen Decisive Battles of the World: from Marathon to Waterloo is a book written by Sir Edward Shepherd Creasy and published in 1851. This book tells the story of the fifteen military engagements (from Marathon to Waterloo) which, according to the author, had a significant impact on world history.

Chapters

The Battle of Gaugamela
The Battle of Tours
The Siege of Orleans
The Spanish Armada
The Battle of Poltava
The Battle of Valmy
The Battle of Waterloo

Each chapter of the book describes a different battle. The fifteen chapters are:

The Battle of Marathon, 490 BC
Excerpt: Two thousand three hundred and forty years ago, a council of Athenian Officers was summoned on the slope of one of the mountains that look over the plain of Marathon, on the eastern coast of Attica. The immediate subject of their meeting was to consider whether they should give battle to an enemy that lay encamped on the shore beneath them; but on the result of their deliberations depended, not merely the fate of two armies, but the whole future progress of human civilization.

Defeat of the Athenians at Syracuse, 413 BC
Known as the Battle of Syracuse.
Excerpt: Few cities have undergone more memorable sieges during ancient and mediaeval times than has the city of Syracuse.

The Battle of Arbela, 331 BC
Also called the Battle of Gaugamela.
Excerpt: ... the ancient Persian empire, which once menaced all the nations of the earth with subjection, was irreparably crushed when Alexander had won his crowning victory at Arbela.

The Battle of the Metaurus, 207 BC
Excerpt: That battle was the determining crisis of the contest, not merely between Rome and Carthage, but between the two great families of the world...
Victory of Arminius over the Roman Legions under Varus, 9 AD
Known as the Battle of the Teutoburg Forest.
Excerpt: ..that victory secured at once and forever the independence of the Teutonic race.

The Battle of Chalons, 451
Also called the Battle of the Catalaunian Fields or the Battle of the Catalun.
Excerpt: The victory which the Roman general, Aëtius, with his Gothic allies, had then gained over the Huns, was the last victory of imperial Rome.

The Battle of Tours, 732
Also called the Battle of Poitiers.
Excerpt: the great victory won by Charles Martel ... gave a decisive check to the career of Arab conquest in Western Europe, rescued Christendom from Islam, [and] preserved the relics of ancient and the germs of modern civilization...

The Battle of Hastings, 1066
Excerpt: ..no one who appreciates the influence of England and her empire upon the destinies of the world will ever rank that victory as one of secondary importance.

Joan of Arc's Victory over the English at Orléans, 1429
Known as the Siege of Orléans.
Excerpt: ..the struggle by which the unconscious heroine of France, in the beginning of the fifteenth century, rescued her country from becoming a second Ireland under the yoke of the triumphant English.

Defeat of the Spanish Armada, 1588
Excerpt: The England of our own days is so strong, and the Spain of our own days is so feeble, that it is not easy, without some reflection and care, to comprehend the full extent of the peril which England then ran from the power and the ambition of Spain, or to appreciate the importance of that crisis in the history of the world.

The Battle of Blenheim, 1704
Excerpt: Had it not been for Blenheim, all Europe might at this day suffer under the effect of French conquests resembling those of Alexander in extent and those of the Romans in durability.

The Battle of Pultowa, 1709
Also called the Battle of Poltava.
Excerpt: The decisive triumph of Russia over Sweden at Pultowa was therefore all-important to the world, on account of what it overthrew as well as for what it established

Victory of the Americans over Burgoyne at Saratoga, 1777
Known as the Battle of Saratoga.
Excerpt: The ancient Roman boasted, with reason, of the growth of Rome from humble beginnings to the greatest magnitude which the world had then ever witnessed. But the citizen of the United States is still more justly entitled to claim this praise.

The Battle of Valmy, 1792
Excerpt: ..the kings of Europe, after the lapse of eighteen centuries, trembled once more before a conquering military republic.

The Battle of Waterloo, 1815
Excerpt: The exertions which the allied powers made at this crisis to grapple promptly with the French emperor have truly been termed gigantic, and never were Napoleon's genius and activity more signally displayed than in the celerity and skill by which he brought forward all the military resources of France...


Point of view

The book is a product of the Victorian era, and Creasy's descriptions of the battles and their impact on history are from a decidedly Eurocentric, and specifically Anglocentric, point of view. For example, every one of Creasy's choices involve Europeans as one or both of the combatants. Of the ten battles fought among Europeans, five of these involve the English. Five of the battles are described as a clash of civilizations between European and Asiatic powers (or between the Indo-European and Semitic linguistic families), with each one being a European victory and with the view that the Europeans are superior. Creasy's comments about Alexander's victory at Arbela are:

"Alexander's victory at Arbela not only overthrew an Oriental dynasty, but established European rulers in its stead. It broke the monotony of the Eastern world by the impression of Western energy and superior civilization, even as England's present mission is to break up the mental and moral stagnation of India and Cathay by pouring upon and through them the impulsive current of Anglo-Saxon commerce and conquest."

In his discussion of the Battle of Marathon, he writes:

"The Greeks, from their geographical position, formed the natural vanguard of European liberty against Persian ambition ; and they pre-eminently displayed the salient points of distinctive national character which have rendered European civilization so far superior to Asiatic."

Derivative works

Since the publication of Creasy's book, other historians have attempted to modify or add to the list.

In 1920 lord Edgar Vincent D'Abernon published The Eighteenth Decisive Battle of the World: Warsaw, 1920, in which he claimed that the next battle on the list was the battle of Warsaw, fought in 1920 by the Polish and Bolshevik forces during the Polish-Bolshevik War.
In 1930 Texas historian Clarence Wharton published San Jacinto: The Sixteenth Decisive Battle, in which he made the case for adding the final battle of the Texas Revolution to Creasy's list. In 1936 the San Jacinto Monument was given an insciption that echoed Wharton's view: "Measured by its results, San Jacinto was one of the decisive battles of the world. The freedom of Texas from Mexico won here led to annexation and to the Mexican War, resulting in the acquisition by the United States of the states of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, California, Utah and parts of Colorado, Wyoming, Kansas and Oklahoma. Almost one-third of the present area of the American Nation, nearly a million square miles of territory, changed sovereignty."
In 1954-1956, British historian J.F.C. Fuller published The Decisive Battles of the Western World and their Influence upon History. Among the battles he listed was the Battle of Warsaw (1920).

In 1956, historian and author Fletcher Pratt published The Battles that Changed History, stories of conflicts that forever changed the course of world events. He listed 16 battles from Arbela to Midway.
In 1964, American historian Lt. Col. Joseph B. Mitchell published Twenty Decisive Battles of the World, an update of Creasy's list with five additions:
The Vicksburg Campaign, 1863. By capturing the Mississippi River during the American Civil War, the Union separated the Confederacy into two halves.

Battle of Sadowa, 1866. This Prussian victory over the Austrians during the Seven Weeks War paved the way for a German empire.
First Battle of the Marne, 1914. The French prevented a German assault of Paris and an early German victory in World War I.
Battle of Midway, 1942. The beginning of the United States offensive in the Pacific Ocean during World War II and the devastating loss of four Japanese aircraft carriers.

Battle of Stalingrad, 1942-43. The defeat of the German attempt to conquer the Soviet Union and a significant loss of German resources in World War II.

In 1976, Noble Frankland and Christopher Dowling published Decisive Battles of the Twentieth Century, which listed 23 battles, from the Battle of Tsushima to the Tet Offensive. "

Anyway, I think this makes interesting reading.
 
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Aussiegunnerreturns    RE:The Fifteen Decisive Battles of the World: your thoughts?   6/20/2006 6:38:31 AM
This would be an excellent post for the "Armed Forces of the World" board.
 
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tjkhan    RE:The Fifteen Decisive Battles of the World: your thoughts?   6/20/2006 6:42:20 AM
Feel free. I have a positve disinclination to venture into those waters.
 
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bigfella    RE:The Fifteen Decisive Battles of the World: your thoughts?   6/20/2006 7:20:16 AM
TJ, You put your finger on the nub of the problem by pointing out the eurocentricity of the list (I'm lumping in the Yanks with Euros here for ease). Even then there are some fascinating absences. How about the victory of the Conquistadors at Tenocticlan? (I spelled that wrong) or the relevant exchange in the Opium Wars? What about a decisive battle from the wars of Liberation in Sth America? Surely Dien Bien Phu has to be there - not only did it effectively seal the fate of Vietnam, but it was one of the first times a colonized nation decisively defeated a colonizing power on its own terms - a set piece modern battle (not counting settler societies here). Beyond that there were Muslim conquests of Mesopotamia, Constantinople & India & various wars in China (Mongol conquests or Taiping Rebellion come to mind) that surely deserve a mention. Perhaps the japanese defeat of China in 1895. The problem here is that I know little about some of these wars & even less about individual battles.
 
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AussieEngineer    RE:The Fifteen Decisive Battles of the World: your thoughts?   6/20/2006 7:45:13 AM
Decisive for who is the question. I remember there was a series on ABC a few months ago about turning points in history. Points where what transpired had widespread repercussions for decades, even centuries to come was the result of a choice or action of a single person or small group of people.
 
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fall out    RE:The Fifteen Decisive Battles of the World: your thoughts?   6/20/2006 8:01:27 AM
"Points where what transpired had widespread repercussions for decades, even centuries to come was the result of a choice or action of a single person or small group of people." British War Cabinent deciding to continue the war after the fall of France in WW2 by one single vote...those few men indirectly saved the world from the most evil regime' in humanity...
 
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gf0012-aust    RE:The Fifteen Decisive Battles of the World: your thoughts?   6/20/2006 8:06:26 AM
on a contrarian note, you could argue that some of the most classical military blunders were significant event changers. eg Cannae, Carrhae, Stirling Bridge etc etc...
 
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Aussiegunnerreturns    RE:The Fifteen Decisive Battles of the World: your thoughts? TJ and Bigfella   6/20/2006 8:49:39 AM
Fair point about the AFOTW board. At least we'll get relatively balanced view here, since Australia can only claim significant involvement in about 4 contenders, ie, 1. The Battle of Hamel(The first demonstration of combined arms warfare). 2. El Alamain(Turned the tide of the German North Africa campaign. 3. The Battle of the Coral Sea(Forced the Japanese to fight overland in New Guniea, culminating in the Battles below). 4. The Kokoda Track campaign and Battle of Milne Bay(culminated in the first defeat of the Japanese Army and turned the tide of the Pacific war) Not to bad for a country that was only 41 years old by the last of those battles, hey;-).... did I miss any?
 
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AlbanyRifles    If I may be so bold   6/20/2006 9:06:39 AM
1. Americans are definitely NOT Euros!!! 2. I would add a. Tet 68.....while the VC and NVA were smashed, it caused support for the war in the US to wane. Showed how a population could drive a national government to change its foreign policy. b. The Battle of the Capes 5 SEP 1781 Defeat of ineptly lead Royal Navy fleet by a French fleet (how often did THAT happen!!) isolated Cornwallis from support which resulted in his surrender at Yorktown six weeks later. Result...USA. c. The Battles of the Atlantic (WW I & II) I put this on the list because it was the near success of the Kriegsmarine to cut off the UK in both wars which caused the Soviets to build a massive submarine fleet and defined NATO naval development fo rth next 50 years.
 
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fall out    RE:The Fifteen Decisive Battles of the World: your thoughts? TJ and Bigfella   6/21/2006 8:29:58 AM
"Not to bad for a country that was only 41 years old by the last of those battles, hey;-)" Despite the fact we technically weren't a nation for those 41 years as we didnt ratify the statute of westminster till '42... ;) "did I miss any?" '01-'03 AFL Grandfinal!! Thankgod the lions (lions being the Victorian part) beat those arrogant bas%ards of Essendon and the pure scum of Collingwood!! What about Ned Kelly sticking it up em!! ;) haha ;)
 
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fall out    RE:If I may be so bold   6/21/2006 8:38:51 AM
"a. Tet 68.....while the VC and NVA were smashed, it caused support for the war in the US to wane. Showed how a population could drive a national government to change its foreign policy." Hardly ranking in the top 15 most influential battles of ALL time but! Perhaps in half a century or more people could look back at this as very important but atm im not so sure... "c. The Battles of the Atlantic (WW I & II) I put this on the list because it was the near success of the Kriegsmarine to cut off the UK in both wars which caused the Soviets to build a massive submarine fleet and defined NATO naval development fo rth next 50 years." Didnt know that about the Soviets!! Interesting! I agree with the 2 battle of the Atlantics but, especially the 2nd one, as ambitious (and stupid) the Kaiser was he wasn't nearly as ambitious as Hitler, nor as evil...
 
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Aussiegunnerreturns    RE:If I may be so bold - AR   6/21/2006 9:05:10 AM
I agree with the Battle of the Atlantic, not only for the reason you give but because it was instrumental in ensuring that Europe didn't remain Nazi dominated. Had it been lost the world would probably now be a much darker place. I don't know anything about the Battle of Capes, but any battle that ensured the birth of the USA is a world changer. For that reason whichever was the battle that turned the tide in the American Civil War also has to be up there, as it ensured the strength of the US to this day. Perhaps you could nominate one for me. The Battle of Tet though? I don't think it is very important. Vietnam was a big deal to Vietnam, the US and Australia, but it didn't change the course of the Cold War. As for the lesson's learned about having to have your population onside, if the people in charge of that war had read their Sun Tzu they would have seen that he said that 2000 years ago. Even the "discovery" of the role of the media wasn't a discovery at all. For example, Goebels seemed to have a pretty good grasp on the issues 30 + years before 'Nam.
 
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Aussiegunnerreturns    RE:The Fifteen Decisive Battles of the World: your thoughts?   6/21/2006 9:15:02 AM
For a battle 1400 years ago that is still having repercussions today, just look to the Battle of Badr. This was the battle where Muhammed and his Medinans first beat the Meccan's, consolodating his position on the Arabian peninsula and eventually leading him to conquor it. From there, Islamic conquorers and traders spread that religion world wide, with all the implications that we all know about.
 
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S-2    RE:The Fifteen Decisive Battles of the World: your thoughts? AGR/AR Reply GETTYSBURG   6/21/2006 5:20:03 PM
This will almost certainly get AR to weigh back in, as we had a spirited (who me?!) and actually very fun debate about Gettysburg vs. Vicksburg. Near simultaneous and definitive battles which both can be argued as decisive to southern fortunes in our Civil War. I'd also nominate Kursk. While Stalingrad marked the limit of Nazi expansion-"the end of the beginning", Von Manstein's operational riposte in the late winter-early spring, 1943 stabilized the eastern front and re-established an offensive mindset within the German Army. The German defeat at Kursk shortly following this success, however, clearly marked the "beginning of the end" for the Wehrmacht. Never again did operational or strategic concepts take the fore. Dien Bien Phu perceived world-wide as a powerful and decisive death-blow to colonialism, also deserves the previously mentioned consideration. Perhaps the argument could be made that the near simultaneous destruction of Groupement Mobile 100 further south in the central highlands has to be added to that final conclusion. Bernard Fall, who wrote so eloquently about both battles, might actually agree with the latter's inclusion.
 
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EW3    RE:S-2/AR GETTYSBURG   6/21/2006 5:26:54 PM
I have to go with Gettysburg on this. Had Lee won and consolidated he could have moved on Washington, or Baltamore, or Philadelphia or even NYC.
 
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Nichevo    RE:The Fifteen Decisive Battles of the World: your thoughts?   6/21/2006 5:26:58 PM
Uh, Lepanto? Trafalgar? Not very naval-oriented this chap.
 
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