those first two links somehow got into SP link format

w*w.usc.edu/dept/MSA/
and submission.org

Ok Isa i went to get some of my resources from the garage lol. (so many books to go thru uugghh) but i havent done this in a while I needed to brush up on my islamic history. I found another great book by Andrew Bostom the legacy of jihad really informative. I guess ill read it again. here are some answers about the jews being protected along with other faith.

Armenian chronicler Ghevond during 8th century Abbasid rule

One saw horrible scenes of every sort of torture; nordid they forget to tax the dead; the multitude of orphans nd widows suffered the same cruelty; priests and ministers at the holy sanctuary were forced by the vile punishments of flogging and whipping to disclose names of their dead and parents; in short the whole population of the country, smitten with taxes, after having paid large sums of zuze (silver coins) also had to wear a lead seal around their necks....as for the lower classes of the population, it had been exposed to different sorts of torture; some suffered flagellation for being unable to pay exorbidant taxes, others were hanged on gibbets, or crushed under presses; and others were stripped of their clothing and thrown onto lakes in the depths of extremely cold winter: and soldiers spread out on the banks and prevented them from clambering anshore and forced them to perish wretchedly (end)

Sufi theologian al-Ghazali (d. 1111) surely you know him ISA he is considered one of the greatest Muslims. Here is what he had to say

The dhimmi is obliged not to mention Allah or his Apostle...Jews Christians and Majiams must pay the jizya...on offering up the jizya the dhimmi must hang his headwhile the official takes hold of his beard and hits the Dhimmi on the protuberant bone beneath his ear...They are not permitted to ostentatiously display their wine or church bells...their houses must not be higher than the muslim's no matter how low that is. The dhimmi may not ride an elegant horse or mule; he may ride a donkeyonly if the saddle is of wood. He may not walk on the good part of the road. They have to wear an identifying patchand even in baths...dhimmis must hold their tongue

I was trying to remeber where i read that although it might have been bat yeor oh well so much for plurality. If you want more i got it. but im gonna do some reading now. I can go all the way to Iran dhimmitude in the late 70s how about 8th and eleventh century now dont want ot embarress you too much. Oh btw you said you were doing this by yourself well I am also.

Well Norden, that is my capacity. I read what you wrote and I AM using it for self-analysis and to expand my understanding.

"...To you be your Way, and to me mine." (109:6)

p.s. I studied works of vivekananda, praphupada and eastern philosophy a long time ago. Lately I am more into early christianity.

Early Christendom has its share of atrocities also, but i thought we were dicussing Islam do a google image search for "Nestorian cross" It shows a cross with a lotus flower in the center under flames. In southern Iraq Persia and also Hulagu Khan was a nestorian. the lotus flower was for peace with buddhists and the flames were for Islam because they felt under attack.

Norden

ISA, I see you are now deflecting your argument with early Christians (more of the "but what about you" argument) and then quote the koran again "to me mine and to you yours" herein lies the problem. Its obvious you believe Islam will bring good and Christians will bring bad. The industrial revolution and secularism brought the ills upon humanity and Islam brought peace and plurality. It seems (to me) you argue against modernity.
 I live in a secular country (you can call it Christendom it seems to justify your religious position) where people can worship what you wish (you enjoy this right daily what would happen to me after what i have said in this forum if i were in a Muslim country). In the post industrial era humanity has grown more than at any time in history and we are still in its infancy IMHO.
I have had Jewish friends make fun of Christians and when i reversed the argument and talked the same shit back they said i was anti-semitic we fought venomously but remained friends.   I know Christians that believe in some sort of Jewish conspiracy and talk shit about Jews regularly. Ive heard some Christians talk about how Jews killed Christ but honestly if the Jews were powerful enough to kill my god why wouldnt I worship Jews instead. Baptists, Protestants, Catholics, and Mormans all think their belief are better than the others. Its all just crap. Even though i think its crazy to have two microwaves and hear my friends lament they dont have room for two dishwashers it is not my business that they want to live kosher. A the end of life when we stand before our "maker" their is really no more room for BS. If you can blow yourself up at a school playground killing children and get in to heaven, nirvana, paradise what have you, then i want no part of God and condemn myself to the eternal hell gladly. Ethnic pride and Religious pride are just that a blinding arrogance, perceived supremacy, and cause for the most evils in mankinds history.

Which brings me to my point. Muslims fight for the reunification of the Ummah and for all people to be under sharia which is stated in the religous texts of Islam as the incontrivertible word of god. Historically sharia doesnt work the world has moved on; look how the M.E. is being left in the dust of modernity. Why cant Muslims enjoy their right to worship  in  the western world as Jews Christians, Satanists, Pagans, Wiccans, Athiests, Zoroastrians, Buddhist, and the Sikh without feeling perpetually offended its because the Islamic texts have said all those others are false and must be fought against. Try an arbitrary examination of western peoples without your Islamic blinders on and try to see if what you are saying is the true will of god. You spoke of studying Buddhism "what a departure from Islam" did you gleen anything from it or was it just another kufr religion to you. The Buddhists in southern Thailand surely dont feel Islam is a religion of peace and plurality. Islam has not changed in 1400 years by design. It is completely xenophobic and intolerant and you want the world to be Islamic so who is the true barbarian.You spoke of the silent majority that disagrees with the jihadist mindset but truthfully these people know its plainly justified in the koran. Thats why they are silent. there is no greater struggle than a physical jihad the Prophet PBUH said this. You say you know nothing of the first hundred years of Islam (we both know this is an outright lie if truly you are a muslim) and refuse to discuss it and would rather throw out disparaging comments about Democracy Secularism and Chritianity. Its kind of funny actually.
Maybe the "Grand Scheme" is for the Muslim countries to get nukes and use them to start a war and wipe out Israel and in return Israel will wipe out a major chunk of the Ummah starting another war where there is only 144k people left in the world. maybe then we can move humanity forward, hopefully retaining our technology and history to not repeat the same mistakes again. maybe the Atlantis myth was true and they were the pre historical survivors of another human atrocity that ushered in an ice age and we are doomed to repeat our mistakes until humanity evolves.

Norden

Norden,

There is so much ignorance in forums is general, hence I try to stay away from them. This time I was attracted by the main posting, being that I was reading a book about early christianity, Jesus, his Apostles, Barnabas, Paul and so forth. The book was amazingly inspiring. At the time I was searching something about year 2012 and the predictions of the Mayans, based on their ancient calendar and I saw the post in this forum. This is how I got here. Anyways.

If Muslims were to follow your understanding and interpretation of Islam, they would all be bearing arms to fight, wasting no time. Thank God there is reason and things are not all black and white.

Industrialization is a totally different topic. I do not attribute it to Christianity, but to secularism. Also, it was embraced by people universally regardless of religion, because it fulfilled their needs. So there is no point in trying to find a culprit for any consequences. My argument was not against modernity, but loss of spiritual values and morality. I believe the effects of industrialization can be repaired, without having to go back to living in tents. 

As for secularism, I believe it will bring ills to the ummah. Apparently, non-muslims seem to be doing well. God gives his laws to Muslims to apply them to the ummah. Exchanging them for other laws, is a deviation from Islam. Hence the upper hand given to Muslims is intertwined with application of God's laws. In other words, God does no favour a person based on his race, language etc. but based on piety. Lack of this application equals lack of success. I believe this to be true for Muslims worldwide as a society, although as individuals they may be successful depending on their individual characters and sincerity. 

I do not believe that Christianity will bring bad. Here is what God says in the Qur'an about Christians:

AL-BAQARAH

Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. (2:62)

AL-MAIDAH

Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant. (5:82)

There is more (bitter and sweet) of course but these are some I came across. Would you believe someone who would always tell you sweet things but never tell you the truth? If you feel bitterness at times (in reference to Christians) upon reading the Qur'an it is because that is the truth. The person that does not want anything good for you will always tell you sweet things (some of it may be true but not all of it). But that bitterness dissolves if you are able to transcend your human Ego, be true to yourself and be selfless in your love for God.

" Ive heard some Christians talk about how Jews killed Christ but honestly if the Jews were powerful enough to kill my god why wouldnt I worship Jews instead"

Norden,
God transcends human's finite nature and limitations (being born, reproducing, dying, etc.) He is all-powerful. Muslims believe that God created heavens and earth in six days (the word used is YAUM, which does not mean literally days but stages). The rest is not included because God does not rest. He is transcends human needs (rest, sleep, hunger, etc.) There is only one God.


"Which brings me to my point. Muslims fight for the reunification of the Ummah and for all people to be under sharia which is stated in the religous texts of Islam as the incontrivertible word of god. Historically sharia doesnt work the world has moved on"

I happen to believe that a fresh approach to Shariah will make things work. I understand your reactions about how Christians were treated throughout history. I do not deny that there was justice in the Muslim society but I do not want to idealize it either. Surely, there were instances of atrocities, some of which you have referenced already. My point is that there is room for improvement. The methods for collection of ahadith were those of the times when they were collected. Today there is more knowledge, and more resources, that will allow a better basis of analyzing the ahadeeth and applying the Qur'an to meet the requirements of today's Muslim society. The truth is that Islamic jurisprudence did evolve throughout centuries, however some schools of thought were almost dogmatized, so there was no room left for any improvements. At the same time, since industrialization society has been moving at a much faster pace that before, and catching up with it was essential. For two hundred years look at how much the world has been transformed.

This is what the Qur'an says about slaying the kaffirs:

Al-BAQARAH (2:190-193)

And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.

And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.


AL-ANFAL (8:38-39)

Say to those who disbelieve, if they desist, that which is past shall be forgiven to them; and if they return, then what happened to the ancients has already passed.

And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do.

But, let us discuss the ahadeeth! 
Muhammad (peace be upon him) was the living example of how Qur'an should be understood and applied. Hence, when the collection of hadeeth was done, one of the main criteria was that a hadith should not contradict Qur'an. Hadeeth were then classified into  sahih (sound, true), dhaif (weak), mawdu (fabricated) and so forth, based on conformity with Qur'an, chains of narration, the reporter, etc. Therefore,  a person that researches the hadeeth literature should keep in mind the classifications, and keep in mind that Muhammad (peace be upon him) was the living example of Qur'an's teachings. A person who tries to argue that Muhammad (peace be upon him) did something contrary to what it says in these verses (and the whole Qur'an), is a desperate liar.

"Its funny that the life of the Prophet was all about Jihad warfare but now the greater jihad is with oneself."

If is funny that all you see in the life of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is Jihad warfare, while his legacy is an entire great religion with laws, a civilization, culture and knowledge. A Sufi becomes a Master once he has perfected himself based on the model of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and it is known that sufis are introspective. Where do you think all the good examples are taken from if Prophet Muhammad's life was all about warfare? How did he manage to unite the fighting pagan tribes? How did he manage to draw so many followers? Do you really think this was achieved only by sword?



Al-Imran (3:159)

Thus it is due to mercy from Allah that you deal with them gently, and had you been rough, hard hearted, they would certainly have dispersed from around you; pardon them therefore and ask pardon for them, and take counsel with them in the affair; so when you have decided, then place your trust in Allah; surely Allah loves those who trust.