You say i take verses out of context but then you bail out before setting me straight. As for the collage well i thought it pertained my post. You bailing just validates my argument (unfortunate for people interested in building bridges) and I would think changing the hearts here would be a great victory in this little piece of cyber-space.

The subjugation of the non-believers (Dhinni) interprets as "protected" but i do not exaggerate in my post it is actually just one the examples (a mild one)Christians Jews Pagans, and Zoroastrians could look forward to. There are many others cited. One being dhimmis on horse must dismount and move to the side of the street if a muslim approaches, or no display of visible religious symbols on person (Saudi today) or how you cannot build a church unless you have a petition signed by all your neighbors (which if any are muslim they will not sign) Or in Egypt a Church can have no religous markings on the outside or be no larger than any neighboring mosque. This is law. They say you can build churches but Copts cant even get building permits to do outside repair much less build a new church so what they have now is decaying.

The prayer "I worship not that you worship" from what i gather (too bad you wont be here to respond) was said by Mohammed PBUH when a Jewish tribe came to make peace with Muslims and asked that they worship their god for 6 months and vice versa. (sorry i dont have the koran memorized but I can dig it up) So the meaning is really i know my religion is true and yours is false. being dismissive, like saying "it is a very old religion" or Taqiyya which is Sunni i believe but used universally like Druse.

ISA said
First, let me point out that any non-muslim gains full rights upon becoming Muslim. That in itself tells you that it is not about racism or anti-semitism.

yes that explains a lot it isnt about racism or anti-semtism its a true disregard for anyone other than a fellow muslim. which justifies my point in surah 9.29 right or ???

You say i take the verses out of context and its really abotu how you relate to god but i thought and from what i know its about the quoran and the Prophets PBUH deeds and how the books must be read together to find true meaning like sura 5-51 The Table i pasted the sura to 5-65 and it does not seem to get better?

51. O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

52. Those in whose hearts is a disease - thou seest how eagerly they run about amongst them, saying: "We do fear lest a change of fortune bring us disaster." Ah! perhaps Allah will give (thee) victory, or a decision according to His will. Then will they repent of the thoughts which they secretly harboured in their hearts.

53. And those who believe will say: "Are these the men who swore their strongest oaths by Allah, that they were with you?" All that they do will be in vain, and they will fall into (nothing but) ruin.

54. O ye who believe! if any from among you turn back from his Faith, soon will Allah produce a people whom He will love as they will love Him,- lowly with the believers, mighty against the rejecters, fighting in the way of Allah, and never afraid of the reproaches of such as find fault. That is the grace of Allah, which He will bestow on whom He pleaseth. And Allah encompasseth all, and He knoweth all things.

55. Your (real) friends are (no less than) Allah, His Messenger, and the (fellowship of) believers,- those who establish regular prayers and regular charity, and they bow down humbly (in worship).

56. As to those who turn (for friendship) to Allah, His Messenger, and the (fellowship of) believers,- it is the fellowship of Allah that must certainly triumph.

57. O ye who believe! take not for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery or sport,- whether among those who received the Scripture before you, or among those who reject Faith; but fear ye Allah, if ye have faith (indeed).

58. When ye proclaim your call to prayer they take it (but) as mockery and sport; that is because they are a people without understanding.

59. Say: "O people of the Book! Do ye disapprove of us for no other reason than that we believe in Allah, and the revelation that hath come to us and that which came before (us), and (perhaps) that most of you are rebellious and disobedient?"

Norden,

I am not bailing out. It it just taking too much of my time and it is five against one in this forum. You will leave another will come and I need to continue with my life. But within my capacity I will give you my reply, because you perceive it as if I am running away with some kind of a tiny little secret. No sir. Islam is not a secret society (neither a society with secrets). Mosques are open to public. Libraries are full of books. Depends what you like to read, and what you like to believe, and the best is not to orient everything toward your own desires but to guide yourself around a set of standards. If those standards are indeed from God, than that is the right way. I am not an extremist, so I don't run away from discussions.

I mentioned building bridges, and you commented that the only bridges Islam wants to build is to bring its war machinery abroad, after you painted a picture of Islam that suited your argument. I still believe that there are bridges to build, and any person who has in-depth knowledge understands this.

Let me start with your citation of Qur'an about Muslims not taking Jews and Christians as friends, as this is the first obstacle, which will impede any chance for some kind of closeness. Not only that, but I live in the American continent, so for me, friendship with Christians is vital (I do not exclude Jews here, I just say Christians because Christianity is predominant). 

Read below. Surah Mumtahana:

60:1      O ye who believe! Take not my enemies and yours as friends (or protectors),- offering them (your) love, even though they have rejected the Truth that has come to you, and have (on the contrary) driven out the Prophet and yourselves (from your homes), (simply) because ye believe in God your Lord! If ye have come out to strive in My Way and to seek My Good Pleasure, (take them not as friends), holding secret converse of love (and friendship) with them: for I know full well all that ye conceal and all that ye reveal. And any of you that does this has strayed from the Straight Path.

So friendship with those:

1. Who have rejected the Truth
2. Driven Muslims out of their homes

is naturally not permitted for Muslims. You cannot love someone who is trying to destroy you or is your sworn enemy.

Christians and Jews, having received previous Scriptures do not necessarily reject the Truth (those meeting points between the three Abrahamic religions), and do not necessarily fight to drive Muslims out of their homes or ban their practice of Islam. And if you suggest that it is going toward that, than you are talking about a green light for Muslims to fight against oppression. Again I will say, I am so very glad my religion gives me the imperative to fight against oppression.

Later in the same Surah (Chapter) it says:

60:8 God forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for God loveth those who are just.

60:9     God only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong.

Therefore, the context is very clear. Even an unbeliever (atheist) if he/she is not an arrogant may become a believer, and if such person is not hostile toward Muslims, than chance for closeness is there. If you care to know, in my family, close and extended, I have everything from Muslims (in name) to agnostic. As you can imagine there is love and mutual understanding.

Also, you probably know this, Muslims are permitted to marry Jewish or Christian women. So, the kids that grow up having a Muslim father and a Christian mother, will obviously love their parents, regardless of relgion, and have a sense of balance and understanding.

Yes, it is true that vice-versa is not permitted for Muslim women. You will understand this in the context of a Muslim society, but you will fail to understand the same in a different context. You cannot expect the state of Islam to be the same as a secular government that applies humman laws (as if humans self-created and know better than God, or as if God never revealed anything to humans. Muslims are people who believe that God revealed a final message to mankind).

Jeziyeh substitutes two obligations for Dhimmi
members of a Muslim society and they are:
exemption from participation in war (which Muslims are obligated to fight when there is an attack or threat from an external enemy)
exemption from zakkat (which Muslims are obligated to pay)

A Dhimmi that decides to participate in a war, is automatically exempted from Jizya. Likewise, at a point when a Muslim state can no longer protect the Dhimmi, the

I will read again what you write, so do not think that I am running away. But be fair, and don't wast my time, if your intention is only to fight Islam,  under any condition, while you know better. Because, such people who know and hide are the real kafiroon (root meaning of kufr is - to cover, to hide... which means, such persons know the Truth but they knowingly hide it). That will explain to you why others have closed with a Surah and left. Perhaps they sensed such  intentions (which lead nowhere).

The first sentence you posted on this thread was

The doctrine of Christianity, officially since the fourth century became the new invention of the Romans. Scriptures combined with Roman paganism produced a severe doctrinal distortion of who Jesus was and what he said.

You kept going on and on about how Christianity did this and that. And that Mohammed PBUH was closer to Jesus than what todays Christian know him. You even quoted the King James bible. Then how poverty and slums where created by the industrial revolution. You chastise S.Whitebull about "turning the other cheek" and what a bad Christian he is.

The sad thing is that you do not see your theological arrogance and how it permeates all your posts. ethnic racial and theological pride commited 99% of all the genocides in history. You stand on your soapbox and speak of this great thing Islam is but only in theory because as model for peace, plurality and secularism is historically inaccurate. You dont want to discuss other countries, laws, or the Koran and ahadith, but the emulation of the Prophets PBUH deeds are the highest place in Islam. Mohammed PBUH has had his face bloodied in battle and his jihad was not internal or defensive. You spoke of anyone who has in-depth knowledge and wants to build bridges, but honestly how do I explain my side when you are equipped with the incontrivertible word of god. You judge another mans belief system and how failed it is while being free of inquisition. See my point. Most non-muslims wont read the koran and ahadith they have their religion and its painful enough but of all the great religions Islam is very different in its propensity for violence which can be justified with the smallest of provocations or holding grudges for almost a thousand years against "Christendom". If you want to build bridges don't use mud (lies) as your foundations substrate.

Jesus's teachings are the bridge itself between Muslims, Jews and Christians, and my comments started with the core matter, which was within the topic of the main post. Historical records that show that Antiochene Christians prayed three times a day, and that they taught about worshipping one God. The great majority of Greeks and Romans being pagan could not comprehend this semitic religion of One God, so they accepted Paul's teachings easier. I think if we want to be true to ourselves and look into the historical records this is where we should start, because Islam is not an alien new religion, but something that pre-existed its advent. As I was trying to make such connection, I was attacked, because I said that Jesus and Muhammad (peace be with them) are close. They are indeed close. Between Jesus and Muhammad there were no semitic prophets, and they are both descendants of Abraham. But the problem is that people who hate Muslims and Islam cannot live with this idea. They would rather accept a lie. So I gave up my naiive attempt in making such connections.

Soon I was attacked by swhitebull, and I replied to him in due proportion (at least I restrained myself and did not offend him... there are things I could have said too, but I did not). After I was attacked I wrote about Christianity, because, with hipocrisy Islam is always taken as the military religion... where do you leave the Roman and Byzantine wars, the expansion into the American continent, colonizations, etc? Does that demonstrate otherwise for Christianity? Why is it that in these type of discussions, Islam is always the religion of war, whereas Christianity is preserved from such possibility? While dhimmi were enjoying rights in the Muslim society of those times, Muslims could not dream of the same in  the Christian world. Nobody seems to appreciate this. At the same times that Muslims were fighting, Romans and Byzantines were also fighting. Nonetheless, the cult of war is somehow reserved only for Muslims. We are supposed to be the evil ones who want to kill everyone. Do you really think that the great silent majority of Muslims think like bin Laden?

My theological arrogance, eh? After all the slogans I have read here I tried to bring reason, in bullet point, clearly explaining things the way I know them, and the way most Muslims accept them. You tried to prove that Muslims cannot befriend Jews and Christians, obviously trying to alienate me, and I wrote back to you with verses from the Qur'an demonstrating that Muslims can indeed befriend Jews and Christians, given that they are not enemies. So between you and me, who is the arrogant one? Is it me? Is it because I tried to introduce friendship against your appetite for enmity?

Have you tried to explain your side? No. You start with the presupposition that Muslims are evil and then you try to prove that? Yeah. Very objective. What is exactly your side of story i

ISA says
But the problem is that people who hate Muslims and Islam cannot live with this idea. They would rather accept a lie. So I gave up my naiive attempt in making such connections.

You still do not see your error; You as a Muslim have the true Christianity and every Christian alive is wrong. ISA hello: Is this not arrogance? How many Christians would say yes oh ISA (PBUH) tell us of the true Christianity. What if I said Mohammeds (PBUH) religion was false the koran, ahadith and suras were not done until 100 years after his death. and to really understand the way of Allah you should be a Christian. Do you get my point yet? If they dont get your point its got to be the people who hate muslims. You say their connections are what exactly? they are of the semitic peoples? Hitler and Schweitzer both had moustaches does that draw the same kind of comparisons?


ISA says
While dhimmi were enjoying rights in the Muslim society of those times, Muslims could not dream of the same in  the Christian world. Nobody seems to appreciate this.

Your point has been shown incorrect but you still keep trying to say this. In defense you say you dont want to talk about governements under Islamic law, or an analysis of Koran which clearly states the fate of dhimmis. But you keep repeating this like a mantra. Its amazing it kinda feels like talking to a 12 year old with a finger in each eardrum going not true lalalalalallalalalalallala In America and the western world Muslims are treated equally a proven fact and as i could post sometimes even more superior due to political correctness. Just one example Muslims cabbies have footbaths in the break room at the airport paid by the government. To take an example of western society i could draw a cartoon of the pope performing fellatio next to a cross soaked in excrement get patted on the back and invited to high profile cocktail parties but if you make a drawing of Mohammed with a bomb turban there will be riots in the streeets and a perceived attack on Islam which justify Islam jihad doctrine.

ISAsays
Nonetheless, the cult of war is somehow reserved only for Muslims. We are supposed to be the evil ones who want to kill everyone. Do you really think that the great silent majority of Muslims think like bin Laden?

Where are the Romans? Where are the Byzantines? They are long gone now, but the daily life of the Prophet PBUH is the main fixation of Muslims today. Its funny and how very telling that you wish to show us how Jesus is to Mohammed (PBUH) but refuse to look at the Prophets life or discuss it in any way. If a person reads what Islam has to say Muslims say well you dont know it in context. Hilarious you dont see how disingenuous that is?  Look not to inflame but lets give a few examples I dont want to do a comparison contrast of Jesus to Mohammed (PBUH) but if you want to so be it.

Did jesus give slave girls known for their beauty to his buddies after a conquest?
Did jesus ever raid merchant wagons?
Did jesus ever call for war?
Did jesus ever behead anyone or call his followers to behead people?
Did jesus say its ok to beat your wife with a stick no bigger than your finger?
Did jesus have multiple wives one which was age 9 when married age 12 when consummated? (even Abu Bakr was suprised)
Did jesus ever say its ok to take married women of the conquered as wives?
Did Jesus say when you kill an unbeliever its ok to take his possessions as long as Islam gets its 20%

Nothing like this is in the Bible but it is in the Koran as stated as the incontrivertible word of God

Isa Says
I wrote back to you with verses from the Qur'an demonstrating that Muslims can indeed befriend Jews and Christians, given that they are not enemies. So between you and me, who is the arrogant one? Is it me? Is it because I tried to introduce friendship against your appetite for enmity?

Where did this friendship start exactly with you setting Christianity straight for its years of stupidity? or when i posted verses as literal but couldnt understand it? or did i miss the group hug? Or is it easier for you to say no look at you mister arrogant I am trying to be the better man. silly and intellectually dishonest (again)

ISA said
Also, the taqiyya you mentioned is a total lie in the context that you tried to apply it. It was used by Shia's to work around oppressions from Sunnis. There is no such phenomenon as  "taqiyya" in theological debates. At least not in Islam

Ok but you said you will not discuss The koran or the first 100 years of Islam and have not so its not a theological debate so is that a smokescreen or what? can i assume since you have not engaged in theological debates the discussion of the Koran or the life of Mohammed that you are practicing taqiyya?


ISA Says
Next time when you accuse someone of lying check yourself first. A

 
Quote    Reply

norden       5/18/2008 12:24:10 AM

ISA says
But the problem is that people who hate Muslims and Islam cannot live with this idea. They would rather accept a lie. So I gave up my naiive attempt in making such connections.

You still do not see your error; You as a Muslim have the true Christianity and every Christian alive is wrong. ISA hello: Is this not arrogance? How many Christians would say yes oh ISA (PBUH) tell us of the true Christianity. What if I said Mohammeds (PBUH) religion was false the koran, ahadith and suras were not done until 100 years after his death. and to really understand the way of Allah you should be a Christian. Do you get my point yet? If they dont get your point its got to be the people who hate muslims. You say their connections are what exactly? they are of the semitic peoples? Hitler and Schweitzer both had moustaches does that draw the same kind of comparisons?

Norden,
Muslims do not think that every Christian alive is wrong. Christians follow the ten commandements (one of the few first says, I am you God, worship Me alone) and their view of Jesus differs. They follow the canonical gospels where some of the vital parts of Jesus' life are covered and are an inspiring example. Bible and the Church teaches you to do good and stay away from bad deeds, to respect your neighbor and even to love your enemy. All the good guidance for Christians is indeed from God. Also, state of Islam when it existed accepted Christianity as it is, without forcing changes. Churches were allowed to be build, practice of religion was allowed. So no, it is not about theological arrogance. Because I am sure that while you are still a Christian and not Muslim, you must have your reasons why Islam is not the right religion for you (some of which you have pointed out here).  Does that mean that every Muslim is wrong? No. It means we should discuss them in good manner, and in the end perhaps agree to disagree. Sorry, I guess I was not paying attention in the way I was explaining things, but you have to understand that you are not the first person I am talking to. Maybe the title of the post itself is not within my capacity to handle in a good manner.


ISA says
While dhimmi were enjoying rights in the Muslim society of those times, Muslims could not dream of the same in  the Christian world. Nobody seems to appreciate this.

Your point has been shown incorrect but you still keep trying to say this. In defense you say you dont want to talk about governements under Islamic law, or an analysis of Koran which clearly states the fate of dhimmis. But you keep repeating this like a mantra. Its amazing it kinda feels like talking to a 12 year old with a finger in each eardrum going not true lalalalalallalalalalallala In America and the western world Muslims are treated equally a proven fact and as i could post sometimes even more superior due to political correctness. Just one example Muslims cabbies have footbaths in the break room at the airport paid by the government. To take an example of western society i could draw a cartoon of the pope performing fellatio next to a cross soaked in excrement get patted on the back and invited to high profile cocktail parties but if you make a drawing of Mohammed with a bomb turban there will be riots in the streeets and a perceived attack on Islam which justify Islam jihad doctrine.

Norden,
You are showing here that reciprocation toward Muslims did not start until the creation of modern  government(s) under Islamic law. You probably want to talk about modern times, to show that Muslims are given the same rights. And that proves my point. If you talk about Islam in the early years and how violent it was you should compare it to Christianity of those days and not of today. Do it for the same period. Did Muslims in the same period enjoy the same rights in the Christian world? Where there in mosques in the Roman or Byzantine empire. Not until they were conquered. Did Christian states (Rome and Byzaninum) in the same period not fight too? Those are the questions I am asking, because to prove that Islam is violent history is often taken as example, but I think it is not analyzed fairly in comparison to other empires of the same time.

I still say that I do not want to talk about governments under Islamic law today, and I will tell you why: Muslim society is partitioned, different laws are applied in different places. This is the very cause of lack of success in the Muslim world because Allah gave the upper hand to Muslims given that they adhere to His laws. With partitioning of Muslim society such power has been dissolved. Now you want to scrutinize the bits and pieces and I do not think that is fair in the context of Islam. We can certainly analyze such laws objectively as modern or secular laws, without trying to prove o

Early Instances of Jihad

The first forms of military Jihad occurred after the fleeing of the Prophet and his small group of followers to Medina from Mecca and the conversion of several inhabitants of the city to Islam. The first revelation concerning the struggle against the Meccans was surah 22, verses 39-40:^[32]

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid;-

(They are) those who have been expelled from their homes in defiance of right,- (for no cause) except that they say, "our Lord is Allah". Did not Allah check one set of people by means of another, there would surely have been pulled down monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, in which the name of Allah is commemorated in abundant measure. Allah will certainly aid those who aid his (cause);- for verily Allah is full of Strength, Exalted in Might, (able to enforce His Will). (Abdullah Yusuf Ali)

There were several reasons for Muhammad and his followers to fight the pagan Meccans:^[33] One reason was the fact that the Muslims had to defend themselves against the attacks of the Meccans. According to this surah 2, verse 190 was revealed:

Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors. (Abdullah Yusuf Ali)

The Muslims had - at least partially - provoked the Meccans to attack them by robbing the goods of their caravans.^[34] However, this was inevitable, for the Emigrants (the Muslims who had fled from Mecca to Yathrib/Medina) had lost all of their goods because of the pagan Meccans and needed a livelihood.^[35] The only choice they had was to rob goods from Meccan caravans which was considered as justified at that time.^[35]

Another reason for the Muslims to fight the pagan Meccans was the fact that they had been persecuted and oppressed by those pagans.^[36] There were still Muslims who couldn't flee from Mecca and were still oppressed because of their faith. Surah 4, verse 75 is referring to this fact:

And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help! (Abdullah Yusuf Ali)

The pagan Meccans also refused to let the Muslims enter Mecca and by that denied them access to the Ka'aba. Surah 8, verse 34:

But what plea have they that Allah should not punish them, when they keep out (men) from the sacred Mosque - and they are not its guardians? No men can be its guardians except the righteous; but most of them do not understand. (Abdullah Yusuf Ali)

The main focus of the later years of Muhammad?s life was increasing the number of allies as well as territory controlled by the Muslims^[37]. The Qu?ran is unclear as to whether Jihad is acceptable only in defense of the faith from wrong-doings or in all cases^[38]. Major battles in the history of

Oh my you actually told me to go to Wikipedia to learn the koran. lol Its interesting you dont know much of the early years of the Koran but the life of the prophet is paramount to Islam then you tell me to read wikipedia about Islam? Hmm this is interesting. Here i posted some sites that can help you with your faith. Maybe you didnt post about these here because some of the forums and islamic scholars here will disagree with what your posting here. Its funny that the life of the Prophet was all about Jihad warfare but now the greater jihad is with oneself. Really who are you kidding yourself or are you trying to conceal some inconvienient truth.  Mohammed was a general who made war with everyone who was against him (no more need for surah quotes) He enslaved and murdered countless tribes the first 100 years of Islam was born of fire that reached all the way to france until Charles Martel.

http://www.jannah.org
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/ > this is my favorite even though i was studying the Koran and Ibn Warraq before god revealed Robert Spencer to me. I have learned a bunch from him also

http://jihadwatch.org/islam101/

The Quran describes Allah as the best deceiver there is, a liar who is not above using the same evil and wicked schemes of his opponents.

For example, the Quran calls Allah a makr, in the fact the best makr there is:

But they (the Jews) were deceptive, and Allah was deceptive, for Allah is the best of deceivers (Wamakaroo wamakara Allahu waAllahu khayru al-makireena)! S. 3:54; cf. 8:30

Other texts that identify Allah as a makr include:

Are they then secure from Allah's deception (makra Allahi)? None deemeth himself secure from Allah's scheme (makra Allahi) save folk that perish. S. 7:99 Pickthall

So they schemed a scheme: and We schemed a scheme (Wamakaroo makran wamakarna makran), while they perceived not. S. 27:50

The word for deception/deceiver/scheme is makr. The lexical sources define the term as:

Miim-Kaf-Ra = To practice deceit or guile or circumvention, practice evasion or elusion, to plot, to exercise art or craft or cunning, act with policy, practice stratagem.

makara vb. (1)
perf. act. 3:54, 3:54, 7:123, 13:42, 14:46, 16:26, 16:45, 27:50, 40:45, 71:22
impf. act. 6:123, 6:123, 6:124, 8:30, 8:30, 8:30, 10:21, 12:102, 16:127, 27:70, 35:10
n.vb. 7:99, 7:99, 7:123, 10:21, 10:21, 12:31, 13:33, 13:42, 14:46, 14:46, 14:46, 27:50, 27:50, 27:51, 34:33, 35:10, 35:43, 35:43, 71:22
pcple. act. 3:54, 8:30

You really need more practice. you go ahead and cut and paste wiki then I shall do the same for ISA hath revealed that to me.

Anyway ISA i was gonna let you leave your words have been noted and your avoiding of questions are very telling indeed. Your arguments are hogwash and accusatory devoid of any self analysis. When some of the most written about parts of the koran are presented to you using Islamic texts they are ignored or you say i dont know what that means, or i cant understand it, or im not familiar with that part. I am not one to say kill all muslims they are out there for sure but for every one of those people their are 10,000 muslims who feel the same way on the other side of the fence. Why is this? it is simple the incontrivertible word of god revealed to mohammed said so and granted Muslims paradie to slay the kaffirs. Like no other great religion in history; militancy in islam has occured since its inception. Mohammed is not a mythological creature but historical one whos life and deeds are there for anyone to discover (although i would suggest other than wikipedia) I really wish you like I would study other religions (not to make you an apostate) to see what others believe. If this is wrong as it might affect your belief in Allah than your not that strong with Allah. I doubt you ever will for as anyone reading your posts will no doubt see you think you posses the superior religion.

As for me I worship the great linoleum may his good side stick to me, and the outside shed water, oils, and be stain resistant while available in a variety of colors with a 30 year warranty against manufacturer defects.



Pertaining to the original thread topic. If someone posted this I am not sure but this site is way more viable than wikipedia

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#004.157 ;

004.157
YUSUFALI: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Je