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Subject: Turks and Armenians: Kane
Godofgamblers    8/3/2006 4:28:41 AM
This thread concerns the question of whether the Genocide of Armenians took place in the Ottoman Empire after WWI. The idea for this thread came from a discussion i had with Kane on the ARMED FORCES OF THE WORLD board. Please be advised that : (1) I have no personal stake in this argument as I am neither Turkish nor Armenian. (2) I have no negative feelings toward Turkey. (3) My own country is guilty of acts of genocide and outright genocide that make the Armenian situation pale in comparison. Thus, I am taking no position of superiority over Turks or Turkey. Since I know little about Turkish history, I would like to conduct the discussion via a series of questions, which I will ask Kane. Others are free to chime in, of course, as they wish. Let's start!
 
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Pars       8/25/2006 4:32:18 AM

Tragedy of Eastern Anatolia has 2 faces.

During WW1, my grandfathers village was attacked by Armenian bandits and nearly half of the population was killed. Fortunately he had left his village previously.

Personally I have read some of the memories of Armenian civilians. Everone that I have read said that attackers were Kurdish irregulars. Some historians argue that Kurdish irregulars were officially part of Ottoman army. But in reality they were not. They were commanded by their tribal leaders and generally did what they wanted to do.

If you want you can check it yourselves, there are several Armenian books on the subject in the Amazon.com

 
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kane       8/25/2006 7:18:51 PM
Well people do not care about Turkish losses,so there is no point of trying to convince them.Emperialism does it's job well.
 
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ozdamar    few scholarly reliable books about the issue   10/2/2006 8:01:41 AM
Well, I'm new to the Strategy Page forums

I am investigating the Armenian Mass Deaths, rebellions... etc. issues of early 1900s as a history hobby for over 6 years. The issue is highly controversial, and politicized. Even many western sholars are affected by the political gains of the powers against Turks. Hence most of the writen books get away from historical science objective methods of investigation and presentation of the topic. The real trouble comes with the word :Genocide. As a law term nowadays it has lost its real meaning and bacome a means to accuse Turks without real firm evidence, nowadays juridical term Genocide became a political gum.

I have read/skimmed over 50 books in Turkish (incuding very early prints that can hardly be found -only in military libraries that Armenian fanatics could not get in to steal) about the issue. I follow several newsletters about the issue as well. I have seen many books for sale in the online shopping sites claiming that mass deaths of the Armenians constitute genocide. But when I read their sample pages, references and reader comments almost all of them lack real historical scholar methods of investigation, and higly based on subjective memorials or unreliable sources. I have seen even some translated in Turkish and skimmed them in bookstrores, just the same they lack reliable Historical evidende and not scientific.

It's very unfortunate that several senates around the wold act as if they are proffessional historians that completed their doctorate on the isssue and make laws prohibiting scholar declatarions that Genocide is questionable. What happened to the famous "freedom of speech" ? Prejudice against Turks drive senators act against all virtues of democracy, and follow their political income expected from Armenian Diaspora.

I hope to contribute more soon.

Today I'd like to recommend few reliable books in English written by Non-turkish scholars :

Directly about the Armenian Issue:

The Armenian Massacres in Ottoman Turkey : A Disputed Genocide (Hardcover)
by Guenter Lewy    ISBN: 0874808499


Armenia: Secrets of a Christian Terrorist State The Armenian Great Deception Series Vol 1. (Hardcover) by Samuel Weems ISBN: 0971921237 (he could not write the 2nd. vol due a to his death by a heart attack)

The Armenian Rebellion at Van... Author: Justin McCarthy; ISBN: 0874808707

Indirectly about the issue:

Muslims and Minorities... Author: Justin McCarthy ISBN: 0814753906

The Ottoman Peoples and the En... Author: Justin McCarthy ISBN: 0340706570

Death and Exile...  The Ethnic Cleansing of Ottoman Muslims, 1821-1922   Author: Justin McCarthy ISBN: 0878500944

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kane       10/2/2006 9:21:19 AM
An Armenian and Muslim Tragedy? Yes ! Genocide? No !

By Bruce Fein



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Both Armenians and Muslims in Eastern Anatolia under the Ottoman Empire experienced harrowing casualties and gripping privations during World War I.Hundreds of thousands perished. Most were innocent. All deserve pity and respect. Their known and unknown graves testify to President John F. Kennedy's lament that "Life is unfair." An Armenian tombstone is worth a Muslim tombstone, and vice versa. No race, religious, or ethnic group stands above or below another in the cathedral of humanity. To paraphrase Shakespeare in "The Merchant of Venice," Hath not everyone eyes? hath not everyone hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions? fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases healed by the same means, warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer...If you prick anyone, does he not bleed? if you tickle him, does he not laugh? if you poison him, does he not die?These sentiments must be emphasized before entering into the longstanding dispute over allegations of Armenian genocide at the hands of the Ottoman Turks during World War I and its aftermath. Genocide is a word bristling with passion and moral depravity. It typically evokes images of Jews dying like cattle in Nazi cyanide chambers in Auschwitz, Bergen-Belson, Dacau, and other extermination camps. It is customarily confined in national laws and international covenants to the mass killing or repression of a racial, religious, or ethnic group with the intent of partial or total extermination. Thus, to accuse Turks of Armenian genocide is grave business, and should thus be appraised with scrupulous care for historical accuracy. To do less would not only be unjust to the accused, but to vitiate the arresting meaning that genocide should enjoy in the tale of unspeakable human horrors.It cannot be repeated enough that to discredit the Armenian genocide allegation is not to deny that Armenian deaths and suffering during the war should evoke tears in all but the stone-hearted. The same is true for the even greater number of contemporaneous Turkish deaths and privations. No effort should be spared to avoid transforming an impartial inquest into the genocide allegations to poisonous recriminations over whether Armenians or Turks as a group were more or less culpable or victimized. Healing and reconciliation is made of more magnanimous and compassionate stuff.

In sum, disprove Armenian genocide is not to belittle the atrocities and brutalities that World War I inflicted on the Armenian people of Eastern Anatolia.I. Sympathy for All, Malice Towards None "War is hell," lamented steely Union General William Tecumseh Sherman during the American Civil War. The frightful carnage of World War I confirmed and fortified that vivid definition.The deep pain that wrenches any group victimized by massacres and unforgiving privation in wartime, however, frequently distorts or imbalances recollections. That phenomenon found epigrammatic expression in United States Senator Hiram Johnson's World War I quip that truth is the first casualty of war. It is customary among nations at war to manipulate the reporting of events to blacken the enemy and to valorize their own and allied forces. In other words, World War I was no exception, about which more anon.

II. The Armenian Genocide Accusation

The Ottoman Turks are accused of planning and executing a scheme to exterminate its Armenian population in Eastern Anatolia beginning on or about April 24, 1915 by relocating them hundreds of miles to the Southwest and away from the Russian war front and massacring those who resisted. The mass relocation (often mischaracterized as "deportation") exposed the Armenians to mass killings by marauding Kurds and other Muslims and deaths from malnutrition, starvation, and disease. After World War I concluded, the Ottoman Turks are said to have continued their Armenian genocide during the Turkish War of Independence concluded in 1922.The number of alleged Armenian casualties began at approximately 600,000, but soon inflated to 2 million. The entire pre-war Armenian population in Eastern Anatolia is best estimated at 1.3 to 1.5 million.

A. Was there an intent to exterminate Ottoman Armenians in whole or in part?

The evidence seems exceptionally thin. The Government's relocation decree was a wartime measure inspired by national self-preservation, neither aimed at Armenians generally (those outside sensitive war territory were left undisturbed) nor with the goal of death by relocation hardships and hazar
 
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kane       10/2/2006 9:22:58 AM
Actually no matter what we say or prove,they will feed their people with hatred aganist Turks.I think they're aware of this situation and they want to do this.
 
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ozdamar    the so called genocide of Armenians, allegations and facts   10/4/2006 3:44:58 AM

I re-edited the below letter to generalize the subject, it was about erecting an so called Genocide memorial in Las Vegas USA. In the end various sources of the referenced statements are given . For furher information click on the links.

-----------------------------------

...

We oppose the use of the term genocide in connection with the Turkish-Armenian conflict during World War I. Genocide is a highly charged, technical, legal term, precisely defined by the United Nations in 1948, and can only be used after a "competent tribunal" reaches that verdict after proper "due process". There are no court verdicts, such as Nuremberg, clearing the way for this term to be used in connection with the Turkish-Armenian conflict during WWI [1]  The British had attempted to try the Turkish leadership of the alleged war crimes; failed to come up with any supporting evidence that could stand the scrutiny of a court of law right ; and eventually had to let the Turkish detainees go without filing a single charge. [2]   That is why the British government, to this day, will refuse to regard this human tragedy that engulfed Armenians, Turks, and other inhabitants of the area a genocide despite pressure and threats from the Armenian Diaspora. [3]   Similarly, neither the will bow the intimidating pressure by the Armenian Diaspora to call the tragedy a genocide.

 We shall know the difference between allegations and facts. Armenian charges of genocide are yet-to-be-proven "allegations", not incontrovertible facts. In the absence of a verdict by a competent court, therefore, all the civilized and decent people of the world must use the qualifier "alleged" before the phrase “Armenian Genocide”, let alone erecting a monument it on public land.

 No one is trying to minimize the suffering of the Armenians; but Armenian suffering must not blind one to the much larger suffering of the Turks and other Muslims of the same era and area, mostly caused by the brutal acts of greedy and vicious Armenian revolutionaries supported by invaders bent on destroying the Ottoman Empire ( Britain, France, and Russia and their Ottoman-Christian proxies.)  Calling it genocide would unfairly place all the blame on Turks whereas it was the Ottoman-Armenian revolutionaries that first poisoned the 800 years of mostly harmonious Turkish-Armenian co-habitation in We would not oppose Armenians' recognition of Armenian losses if their memorials were named more realistic "The Armenians’  War Memorial."

  Armenian terrorists in our midst already assassinated four Turkish diplomats on American soil in the last 30 years and tried to justify their heinous acts by the false charge of genocide, while wearing ugly grins and flashing victory signs in American court rooms. [7] 

 Insisting blindly on anti-Turkish biased policies and programs based on partisan Armenian propaganda and un-substantiated historical claims will almost surely offend and anger  the good citizens of the , standing shoulder to shoulder in all conflicts, including but not limited to   Erecting the sop called Genocide memorials around serves no benefit other than further polarizing Turkish and Armenian communities in as well as adding to the apprehension and anxiety felt in Such moves will add to the tension in the already troubled Balkans- Caucasus- Middle East triangle at a time when we need friendly cooperation and support more than ever

 During the Balkan Wars of 1911-1912 that preceded the WWI., Hundreds of thousands  of  Ottoman Turkish children packed into trains and whisked to Most had lost their entire families, relatives, neighbors, and indeed, the entire populations of hundreds of Turkish-villages.  These hundreds of thousands of Muslims  fleeing Ottoman-Christian excesses in the Balkans were confronted  with yet another cycle of Ottoman-Christian violence in   by the  Ottoman-Greeks in the West and by the Ottoman-Armenians in the East.  One might say that those poor, starving Ottoman-Muslim refugees jumped from  the frying pan right into the fire.  Turkish losses were unfathomable:  2.5 million dead; many times that number wounded; in a country left in rubble; starvation and disease everywhere...  And here is the rub:  523,000 thousand of those Turkish dead met their tragic ends at the hands of the Armenian revolutionaries.   And due to endless, senseless, baseless, and fraudulent Armenian propaganda in the West since 1915, like many hate monuments in some countries for example, one hardly ever heard Turkish side of the story, felt the Turk

 
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ozdamar    54 questions and self-explanatory answers about the Armenian issue, recflections of a lecture in a college in CA   10/4/2006 10:22:43 AM
54 critical Questions aroused in an Armenian Propoganda Lecture in El Camino College in Torrance (near Los Angeles, California)

source: link

ARMENIAN SCHOLAR AT EASE WITH CENSORSHIP

Ergun KIRLIKOVALI ergun@turkla.com...

SYNOPSIS: From Ergun KIRLIKOVALI to several African-American students who wanted more information about the Turkish views after the biased lecture by the Armenian professor :

“Today, you witnessed with your own eyes how the views of a group of people party to a controversial issue were censored by the organizers and the lecturer. Ask yourselves: How can this happen in the 21st Century at an institute of higher learning in the most advanced and richest state in the Union, California? And next time someone gives you a lofty lecture about the freedom of speech in America, please remember today!”

******************

PART 1: THE MISLEADING INVITATION

It all started with an innocuous looking invitation to the faculty members at El Camino College in Torrance (near Los Angeles, California):

“ The History Department invites you and your students to attend a free lecture:
Dr. Levon Marashlian on the Armenian Genocide
Tuesday, May 9, at 1:00 in the Campus Theater “

Shouldn’t that have read the “alleged” Armenian Genocide? Isn’t Genocide a special legal term with a very precise definition, arrived at after many years of diplomatic negotiations, until it was concluded in the 1948 convention in the United Nations? Isn’t it true that the genocide convention was one of the longest negotiated issues in the UN history? Doesn’t it require that a genocide charge must be proven at a “competent tribunal” after proper “due process” before the label of genocide can be used to characterize a certain tragic event after 1948? Isn’t it true that this law, like all proper laws, is not retroactive?

For example, we know that the Holocaust is an incontrovertible fact, not because of those numerous Hollywood movies, but because the charges of crimes against humanity leveled against the German Nazis were subjected to a proper and rigorous “due process” at Nuremberg Tribunal after the World War II. The prosecutors introduced supporting evidence, facts, figures, eye witnesses and more and the defendants were allowed to cross examine them before the final verdict was reached: what Nazis did to Jews during WWII was a genocide ( as Rafael Lemkin, the creator of the term, intended the term to mean). This term now seems to be deliberately misused by partisans to misrepresent almost every human tragedy. Is every killing a genocide? Is every my-grandma-told-me-story, family photo, or crying eye witness account a genocide? Of course, not. There are other laws that deal with such crimes. Genocide is a very special concept where a government acts with “premeditation” to exterminate directly or indirectly part or whole of a group of people for national, ethnic, racial, and/or religious reasons. While individual can take part in a genocide, only governments can launch and conduct genocide. “Intent” is the key word here. Intent to exterminate must be proven at a “competent tribunal” before anyone can use the genocide label. Just because Armenian lobbyists shout the loudest doesn’t make a civil war a genocide.

Where then was this “competent tribunal” for the Armenian allegations of genocide held? And when? Who held them? Was due process allowed to run its course? How come we didn’t hear about it? After all, Turks are a party to this issue and they must have been heard at such a tribunal, right? Turks should have cross-examined the Armenian evidence and present counter evidence, right? Isn’t this what “due process” is all about? Turks can easily prove that most of the Ottoman-Armenians were brutal insurgents, armed to the teeth by the Western allies during WWI, all of whom were intent on destroying the Ottoman Empire and the Ottoman-Armenians did cause the deaths of 523,000 of their Muslim

 
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kane       10/4/2006 12:25:22 PM
You should have showed up before :) Anyways this info will be in my archives and I'll use them.Thank you
 
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Godofgamblers    ozdamar    10/10/2006 1:19:50 AM

You should have showed up before :) Anyways this info will be in my archives and I'll use them.Thank you


ozdamar, thanks for entering the discussion. you obviously have a lot to contribute.
 
tell me, i have read that the only way to definitively settle this issue is to open up the Ottoman archives and see their files, but Turkey has not yet, or refuses, to allow access to them. Is this true?
 
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Godofgamblers       10/10/2006 5:06:15 AM

You should have showed up before :) Anyways this info will be in my archives and I'll use them.Thank you

An article about this subject was recently posted on robertfisk.com.  Perhaps it will stimulate discussion:

 

You're talking nonsense, Mr Ambassador

All the while, new diplomatic archives are opening to reveal the smell of death - Armenian death

By Robert Fisk - 20 May 2006

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/fisk/article548977.ece

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article13121.htm

A letter from the Turkish Ambassador to the Court of Saint James arrived for me a few days ago, one of those missives that send a shudder through the human soul. "You allege that an 'Armenian genocide' took place in Eastern Anatolia in 1915," His Excellency Mr Akin Alptuna told me. "I believe you have some misconceptions about those events ..."

Oh indeedy doody, I have. I am under the totally mistaken conception that one and a half million Armenians were cruelly and deliberately done to death by their Turkish Ottoman masters in 1915, that the men were shot and knifed while their womenfolk were raped and eviscerated and cremated and starved on death marches and their children butchered. I have met a few of the survivors - liars to a man and woman, if the Turkish ambassador to Britain is to be believed - and I have seen the photographs taken of the victims by a brave German photographer called Armen Wegner whose pictures must now, I suppose, be consigned to the waste bins. So must the archives of all those diplomats who courageously catalogued the mass murders inflicted upon Turkey's Christian population on the orders of the gang of nationalists who ran the Ottoman government in 1915. What would have been our reaction if the ambassador of Germany had written a note to the same effect? "You allege that a 'Jewish genocide' took place in Eastern Europe between 1939 and 1945 ... I believe you have some misconceptions about those events..." Of course, the moment such a letter became public, the ambassador of Germany would be condemned by the Foreign Office, our man in Berlin would - even the pusillanimous Blair might rise to the occasion - be withdrawn for consultations and the European Union would debate whether sanctions should be placed upon Germany.

But Mr Alptuna need have no such worries. His country is not a member of the European Union - it merely wishes to be - and it was Mr Blair's craven administration that for many months tried to prevent Armenian participation in Britain's Holocaust Day.

Amid this chicanery, there are a few shining bright lights and I should say at once that Mr Alp-tuna's letter is a grotesque rep-resentation of the views of a growing number of Turkish citizens, a few of whom I have the honour to know, who are convinced that the story of the great evil visited upon the Armenians must be told in their country. So why, oh why, I ask myself, are Mr Alptuna and his colleagues in Paris and Beirut and other cities still peddling this nonsense?

In Lebanon, for example, the Turkish embassy has sent a "communiquZ" to the local French-language L'OrientLeJour newspaper, referring to the "soi-disant (so-called) Armenian genocide" and asking why the modern state of Armenia will not respond to the Turkish call for a joint historical study to "examine the events" of 1915.

In fact, the Armenian president, Robert Kotcharian, will not respond to such an invitation for the same reason that the world's Jewish community would not respond to the call for a similar examination of the Jewish Holocaust from the Iranian president - because an unprecedented international crime was committed, the mere questioning of which would be an insult to the millions of victims who perished.

But the Turkish appeals are artfully concocted. In Beirut, they recall the Allied catastrophe at Gallipoli in 1915 when British, French, Australian and New Zealand troops suffered massive casualties at the hands of the Turkish army. In all - including Turkish soldiers - up to a quarter of a million men perished in the Dardanelles. The Turkish embassy in Beirut rightly states that the belligerent nations of Gallipoli have transformed these hostilities into g

 
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