Turks and Armenians: Kane

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Godofgamblers holocaust and armenians 8/10/2006 9:25:17 PM

it seems to me that kane has pointed out some of the main differences between the holocaust and the armenian situation/genocide. the germans had a public policy of wiping out the jews. as for the ottoman empire, it is, i believe, still a matter of debate. to date, no document has come to light stating that the extermination of armenians was gov't policy. however, many documents have yet to been examined. perhaps this matter will be cleared up during our lifetimes. it seems that the extermination of the armenians may well have come about because the ottoman authorities 'turned a blind eye' to what was happening. they probably thought that the armenians were getting their just desserts. is this what you maintain, kane? however, one point that you did not raise, kane, was that the jewish holocaust was a TRANSNATIONAL phenonomen. the germans exterminated jews in all occupied countries and planned to exterminate them all over europe. meanwhile, the armenians were located solely in turkey. surely you can see the significance of this. if a minority group exists in JUST ONE COUNTRY and moves are made to kill them off in large numbers, the word genocide will immediately be put forward. the use of the word 'genocide' is therefore not some international conspiracy to weaken the turks or to keep the turks down, as you seem to suggest, kane, but a natural reaction to events. if the iranians, for example, were to round up and execute all americans after the fall of the shah, 'genocide' would not be an issue since america is far away and the number of americans in iran was minimal. however, with the armenians it was a totally different matter. some of your arguments are strong, kane, but overall it seems like you are first defining the word genocide to fit your purposes and then using the definition that you yourself made to state that 'no genocide took place'.... what do you think?

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Godofgamblers scratchie 8/10/2006 9:28:51 PM

admittedly, i know little about turkey; i only know about the armenian genocide from hearsay. this is why i decided to enter into this debate with kane to see the reasoning behind why he says it didn't happen. any information you can give would be appreciated.

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Scratchie RE:godofgamblers 8/11/2006 12:03:04 AM

ok. let me give you some info that I know. So Armenians claim that 1.5 million had been killed due to genocide. BUT 1) this number conspires with the actual Armenian population just before the so-called genocide took place. According to my research, Armenian population was about 1.5 million and 130,000 of it were living in Istanbul. 2) If you make a little research, you would find that the Armenian population in Istanbul and other western cities was not affected. 3) Russia promised Armenians a piece of land to make them rebel against Ottoman Empire and they succeeded in that. 4) Armenians could not accomplish to grab a piece of land from the Ottomans even though they (Ottomans) were going through hardest time of her history. 5) They made up this lie to make everyone believe that they were the victims of genocide and drew all the attention along with the funding to make us accept this genocide that we've never done. 6) And everyone believed them bubt based on what??? What good proof did they have other than pictures to show while the WW1 was going on. I can also get a picture of a dead Armenian kid and make you believe that it was Turkish. I know I am Turkish. And I know what I say and believe may be biased. But I am just telling you what I really think and believe. Some say 1.5, some say 2, 3 nd even 4 million were killed. Are you kidding me? Our people will kill 4 million people and not lose even a 1/4 of that population. Why would we need to kill minorities when we have bigger natioons to deal with such as Britain, France, Italy and Greece? Does anything make sense to you? Those are all cheap lies and I cannot believe everyone believes without actually getting into it a little more. So This is what I gotta say. Hope I did not sound biased. And I am sorry if I did.

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Godofgamblers RE:godofgamblers Scratchie 8/11/2006 3:45:47 AM

scratchie, your arguments are reasonable and you seem like a very well educated person. if it is true, as you say, that most of the killing of armenians happened outside of istanbul then this would suggest that it was not a government sanctioned event. you argue that it was not genocide but simply an unfortunate part of the breakup of the ottoman empire. the fact that armenians may choose to exaggerate the events for political purposes is possible, as you point out. however, let me ask you one thing: You say a lot to justify your country's actions... but can you find fault, any fault at all, with your government's handling of the situation?

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Scratchie RE:godofgamblers 8/11/2006 9:37:54 AM

I don't like politics that much, but in this case, whoever is in the Gov't would do the same like denying the genocide. I don't know if it really happened back in time, but when I think about it, I always ask my self "why would we need to kill 1.5 million Armenians?" Weren't there any other minorities within the Ottoman empire? The only fault I find in my gov't in this case is that they don't do enough to justify that there wasn't a genocide that took place. The biggest defense came from an American in favor of Turkey, Sam Weems, a former distric attorney and judge. He made a lot of research on this and wanted to know why he has to pay extra taxes for Armenians. And of course he found the truth in the end. One last thing for you Godofgamblers... Thanks for being objective.

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Roman RE:godofgamblers 8/11/2006 12:34:04 PM

GoG and others:- Please be careful with respect to Turkish historians and the Armenian Genocide. Although I am sure some Turkish historians are not so fiercely nationalistic as to deny this atrocity and are honest enough to study the Armenian genocide objectively, the Turkish government has imposed a ban on publicizing the existence of the Armenian Genocide and the Turkish government is extremely fierce in enforcing the ban, so you are not going to hear from them. You will only hear from the deniers and it is such denial that they teach in Turkish schools. It is unclear how many Armenians there were in the Ottoman empire at the time of the Armenian Genocide. The consensus figure (except for the aforementioned Turkish historians and a small number of their foreign sympathisers who will give you different [smaller] numbers) seems to be that about 2 million Armenians lived in the Ottoman Empire at the time, with most independent estimates running from 1.8 million to 2.4 million Armenians (BTW: The Ottoman government purposefully undercounted Armenians for political reasons - it had the Armenian population constant for 50 years despite the fact that Armenian fertility rates were about 7 children per women at the time!). The exact number killed in the genocide is to determine. The most common Armenian sources state that 1.5 million Armenians were killed in the genocide, a figure supported by many independent sources. Many other independent sources give a figure of 1 million plus Armenians killed relfecting the inexact nature of their estimates, but acknowledging that the number killed in the genocide exceeded 1 million Armenians. Turkish government sources claim that only 300,000 Armenians were killed in the genocide (but they don't call it that...). Personally, I prefer to use the 1 million plus number, as it seems to be the most credible. The Turkish government numbers, by contrast seem by far the least credible, especially given the completely atavistic/persecuting attitute the Turkish government is taking to people even talking about the Armenian genocide (basically, these people are charged with 'insulting Turkishness'... it is absolutely ridiculous). Also, remember the definition of genocide by the United Nations Convention Against Genocide - I posted it in my previous post. It shows that as hard as some may be trying to define Armenian Genocide away as something else, it is still a genocide. There are some deniers of the Holocaust of the Jews, but in Germany they are tried and imprisoned for doing so. This is wrong - you should not imprison somebody for an opinion - even one as extreme as this. But the Turkish government not only does not imprison Armenian Genocide deniers - it actively supports them and finances them, and teaches this denial in schools. Furthermore, it persecutes and imprisons those who do believe the Armenian Genocide took place. Remember the universal stages of genocide... and notice the stage many Turks are exhibiting (stage: denial/blame the victim). Honest and fairminded Turks on the matter of Armenian Genocide do exist (though they are limited in number, because of the school system and media denial in Turkey), but you will have difficulty finding them, as they are either intimidated by the Turkey's government and the atmosphere in Turkey or they are being tried or they are already in prison.

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VelocityVector RE: Context 8/11/2006 12:52:54 PM

Consider: link Further consider: link The Armenian Genocide, a brief synopsis: The Armenian Genocide was carried out by the "Young Turk" government of the Ottoman Empire in 1915-1916 (with subsidiaries to 1922-23). One and a half million Armenians were killed, out of a total of two and a half million Armenians in the Ottoman Empire. Most Armenians in America are children or grandchildren of the survivors, although there are still many survivors amongst us. Armenians all over the world commemorate this great tragedy on April 24, because it was on that day in 1915 when 300 Armenian leaders, writers, thinkers and professionals in Constantinople (present day Istanbul) were rounded up, deported and killed. Also on that day in Constantinople, 5,000 of the poorest Armenians were butchered in the streets and in their homes. The Armenian Genocide was masterminded by the Central Committee of the Young Turk Party (Committee for Union and Progress [Ittihad ve Terakki Cemiyet, in Turkish]) which was dominated by Mehmed Talât [Pasha], Ismail Enver [Pasha], and Ahmed Djemal [Pasha]. They were a racist group whose ideology was articulated by Zia Gökalp, Dr. Mehmed Nazim, and Dr. Behaeddin Shakir. The Armenian Genocide was directed by a Special Organization (Teshkilati Mahsusa) set up by the Committee of Union and Progress, which created special "butcher battalions," made up of violent criminals released from prison. Some righteous Ottoman officials such as Celal, governor of Aleppo; Mazhar, governor of Ankara; and Reshid, governor of Kastamonu, were dismissed for not complying with the extermination campaign. Any common Turks who protected Armenians were killed. The Armenian Genocide occurred in a systematic fashion, which proves that it was directed by the Young Turk government. First the Armenians in the army were disarmed, placed into labor battalions, and then killed. Then the Armenian political and intellectual leaders were rounded up on April 24, 1915, and then killed. Finally, the remaining Armenians were called from their homes, told they would be relocated, and then marched off to concentration camps in the desert between Jerablus and Deir ez-Zor where they would starve and thirst to death in the burning sun. On the march, often they would be denied food and water, and many were brutalized and killed by their "guards" or by "marauders." The authorities in Trebizond, on the Black Sea coast, did vary this routine: they loaded Armenians on barges and sank them out at sea. The Turkish government today denies that there was an Armenian genocide and claims that Armenians were only removed from the eastern "war zone." The Armenian Genocide, however, occurred all over Anatolia [present-day Turkey], and not just in the so-called "war zone." Deportations and killings occurred in the west, in and around Ismid (Izmit) and Broussa (Bursa); in the center, in and around Angora (Ankara); in the south-west, in and around Konia (Konya) and Adana (which is near the Mediterranean Sea); in the central portion of Anatolia, in and around Diyarbekir (Diyarbakir), Harpout (Harput), Marash, Sivas (Sepastia), Shabin Kara-Hissar (þebin Karahisar), and Ourfa (Urfa); and on the Black Sea coast, in and around Trebizond (Trabzon), all of which are not part of a war zone. Only Erzeroum, Bitlis, and Van in the east were in the war zone. The Armenian Genocide was condemned at the time by representatives of the British, French, Russian, German, and Austrian governments?namely all the major Powers. The first three were foes of the Ottoman Empire, the latter two, allies of the Ottoman Empire. The United States, neutral towards the Ottoman Empire, also condemned the Armenian Genocide and was the chief spokesman in behalf of the Armenians. The American people, via local Protestant missionaries, did the most to save the wretched remnants of the death marches, the orphaned children. Despite Turkish denial, there is no doubt about the Armenian Genocide. For example, German ambassador Count von Wolff-Metternich, Turkey's ally in World War I, wrote his government in 1916 saying: "The Committee [of Union and Progress] demands the annihilation of the last remnants of the Armenians and the [Ottoman] government must bow to its demands." German consuls stationed in Turkey, including Vice Consul Max Erwin von Scheubner-Richner of Erzerum [Erzurum] who was Adolf Hitler's chief political advisor in the 1920s, were eyewitnesses. Hitler said to his generals on the eve of sending his Death's Heads units into Poland, "Go, kill without mercy . . . who today remembers the annihilation of the Armenians." Henry Morgenthau Sr., the neutral American ambassador to the Ottoman Empire, sent a cable to the U.S. State Department in 1915: "Deportation of and excesses against peaceful Armenians is i

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Scratchie RE:Roman 8/11/2006 2:27:20 PM

So only people that say it didn't happen are honest? Did they see it happening or did you? Neither did I. But noone actually knows the exact evidence. Noone can actually tell what the population of the minorities was back in time. I am asking you again. Is there any verifiable evidence that this genocide took place other than the pictures? As for prisoning the Turkish historians by the Turkish gov't. I agree that they should not be put into prison, but how would you explain the assasinations of 40+ diplomats by Armenian terrorist group called ASALA. Those assasinations took place in numerous nations like USA, France, Britain, Canada etc... And yes, our teachers deny that the genocide took place. But WE ARE NOT TAUGHT TO HATE OUR PAT ENEMIES. believe this or not. But Armenians are. This is not about Islam vs. Christianity, this is about how much money Armenians can get. Holocaust is completely different. You got all the evidence you want plus not even one German denies it and some of them must be really proud of it. (Nazis only) you see the holocaust in the videos, speeches of hitler... Well... Godofgamblers, this issue will go on and on, so there's no need to talk about it. Noone will ever stop prejudging us. Yes, We, Turks are proud. Because we are not taught to hate other nations in school, we are rather taught to love them. That's why we're proud of our history country, flag, ancestors and our great leader, M.K. Ataturk.

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Scratchie RE: if we accept 8/11/2006 2:32:34 PM

One question for anyone who believes that this happened. What would happen if Turkish gov't admitted the genocide?

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VelocityVector RE:Turks and Armenians: Scratchie 8/11/2006 3:34:06 PM

> What would happen if Turkish > gov't admitted the genocide? What should happen: - correction to the historical record - full access to Turkish archives so that we may repatriate artifacts and reconstitute extinguished Armenian culture in Armenia (demolished churches, libraries, etc.) to extent possible - space for small monuments to our dead in Turkey and Syria - full cooperation in quieting the Karabagh issue (thanks for this problem, Russia) - lifting of embargo - trade and energy treaties; infrastructure links on mutual terms - non-aggression pact and military exchanges (closure of Russian bases in Armenia) - access to Big and Little Massis but no title to the land or other encumbrances on Turkish rights I personally do not know any person of Armenian descent who expects to be compensated with Turkish money or Turkish (formerly Armenian) land. We have enough of both to rebuild and get by if we are patient. Instead we demand Turkish cooperation so that we may care for our people, the living and the dead, and bring closure to this wound. Placing historical truth into the sunshine is the essential first step. v^2

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