Turks and Armenians: Kane

Email Me When A New Comment Is Made
Show Only Poster Name and Title Newest to Oldest

Pages: PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 NEXT

Roman Hijacked Thread - Sorry! 8/4/2006 2:03:42 PM

Well, it seems like I have hijacked the thread. I have just realized that GoG's intention was to discuss the matter with kane specifically. Hence, I will try to refrain from posting in this thread from now on, unless a question or a comment is meant directly for me. BTW: As you can see I recognize my mistakes on this thread and am taking corrective action... he, he, sorry, I just could not resist saying that. ;)

Quote Reply

kane Roman 8/4/2006 3:24:06 PM

No you didn't hijacked it.Well look,i'm not saying it wasn't a genocide because of my nationality.I believe this is an emperialist lie to weaken Turkey.Many countries slaughtered people. Americans-Indians French-Algerians Chinese-Uighur Turks Brits-well i don't know if they did but they had so many colonies.They may have done some Russians-Just before WW2 None of the above are known as "Genocide" Now look at those country names,what are they,they're super powers. Now look at Turkey and it's history.Ottomans were very large,nearly ruled over Europe.You must do somethings to weaken a super power. Roman,please don't be mad at me.I don't want people to call my countryman as "monster".And i also don't want to see this as a block that slows my country. Those other countries seem to forget their crimes. Look at France!!You call it a free a country??Did you know that it is ILLEGAL to say "there wasn't a genocide aganist Armenians".Or do you know that a Turkish professor was arrested just because he said "there is no genocide" in Switzerland. I warmed up guess i should begin.

Quote Reply

Godofgamblers RE:kane 8/4/2006 7:48:48 PM

i'm in indonesia, kane. not sure of the time difference... it's probably about 8hrs... we probably won't be online at the same time, i'm afraid.

Quote Reply

Godofgamblers RE:Roman 8/4/2006 7:53:10 PM

yes, this thread has a history to it, roman. it started from a discussion in ARMED FORCES OF THE WORLD. there is also a thread on this board called TITAN where the armenian question is dealt with. in TITAN, some seemed to say that there was no genocide but 'acts of genocide'. it does seem much the same, and i'd like to discuss that with kane. i note that the term is used by the US when it doesn't want to intervene in a situation. according to a UN convention, the US must intervene in genocide so the US will term something 'acts of genocide' (such as happened in Rwanda) instead of genocide to allow them to not take action. feel free to chime in on this discussion though, roman. i'm sure others will join in too soon.

Quote Reply

kane begin 8/5/2006 6:21:31 AM

Ok as a source i'll use a book called "Tarihimizle Yüzleþmek(facing our history)"by Emre Kongar.Well i looked at his history and he is a pretty succesfull professor who also has international awards. This book is about Turkish history.What we did wrong in history.Since he is a Turk his writings may not satisfy you BUT i must say that he is pretty objective. some topics in the book -Turks converted into Islam by force -Turkish Islam is different then Arabian -Ottomans could not move scientifically because of the religious pressure -Ottomans killed people because of their religious beliefs there are many other things that we made wrong,but our topic is Armenian problem Now with my little English i'll try to translate what he wrote What is "Genocide"??(this part is important learn what it means) "genos"-in latin means,"soy" in Turkish,can say nation in English "caedere"-in Greek means killing,slaughtering It must be a planned thing!!!! 1.The slaughter must be done aganist a race(or religion) as government's policy. 2.This slaughter sould happen in ever parts of the country,not just one place. 3.This slaughter must be done repeatedly not once. This word was opened to signs in 9 December 1948 by UN.Turkey signed this in 23.3.1950 It was firstly used aganist Nazi warcrimes in 2.WW courts. Nazis killed 6 million Jews systematically in camps.(by burning and gassing) The word "Genocide" was also used aganist old Yugoslavia. I'll countinue later. After i tell what happened you will decide whether it's a genocide or not!!!

Quote Reply

Godofgamblers Questions #3 8/6/2006 4:59:36 AM

What are the similarities and differences between the Holocaust and the Armenian Genocide/'Problem' ? And don't forget to answer question #2, ya,Kane.

Quote Reply

Roman RE:Roman 8/6/2006 5:26:07 AM

"No you didn't hijacked it.Well look,i'm not saying it wasn't a genocide because of my nationality.I believe this is an emperialist lie to weaken Turkey.Many countries slaughtered people. Americans-Indians French-Algerians Chinese-Uighur Turks Brits-well i don't know if they did but they had so many colonies.They may have done some Russians-Just before WW2" Yes, all of these have killed people on a large scale, but: Americans & Indians: This is generally acknowledged by virtually ALL Americans as a dark period in their history - I indeed have often seen it referred to as a genocide French & Algerians: Very nasty French behaviour, but not a genocide - concentrated on killing the fighters, not civilians (though it is true that the French did not concern themselves about collateral damage in the slightest) Chinese & Uighur Turks: There is no doubt oppression of Uighur Turks by the Chinese authorities, but I have seen no evidence that it is a genocide; feel free to convince me otherwise Brits & much of the world: Brits were probably the mildest colonialists, but that is not to say they did not kill people - even so, I have not seen indication that they would kill a sufficiently large proportion of any one population to call it a genocide (apart from what is already convered under the American heading). Besides, the Brits generally feel guilty about their oppression of other peoples Russia before WWII: Mass slaughter - one of the biggest in history - of that there is no doubt. BUT the majority of victims of the slaughter were Russians themselves and the two second biggest victims were the Ukrainians and the Belorussians respectively, both of whom are closely related to the Russians. As such, it is difficult to classify this as a genocide - more like a classicide - destruction of certain classes of society. That said, though, I do not really think that classicide is any better than genocide. Again, though, this period of Russia's history is widely condemned by all post-Soviet governmnets (Russian government included) and despite what I said it is indeed referred to as a genocide in some circles. "None of the above are known as "Genocide"" Actually, several of them are often referred to as a genocide, as I pointed out. There will, however, no doubt be more focus in the future on the Turkish genocide of the Armenians for one simple reason - the Turks generally refuse to acknowledge it. Refusal to acknowledge something like this naturally breeds controversy and attracts attention. "Now look at those country names,what are they,they're super powers. Now look at Turkey and it's history.Ottomans were very large,nearly ruled over Europe.You must do somethings to weaken a super power. Roman,please don't be mad at me.I don't want people to call my countryman as "monster".And i also don't want to see this as a block that slows my country. Those other countries seem to forget their crimes. Look at France!!You call it a free a country??Did you know that it is ILLEGAL to say "there wasn't a genocide aganist Armenians".Or do you know that a Turkish professor was arrested just because he said "there is no genocide" in Switzerland. I warmed up guess i should begin." Come on kane, let's not get into conspiracy theories about superpowers etc.... that will lead this discussion nowhere. And I am not mad at you, but I do think it is highly insulting and disrespectful to the relatives of the victims to refuse to acknowledge a genocide.

Quote Reply

kane RE:Questions #3/2 8/6/2006 5:28:04 AM

Well when i say Armenian genocide,it seems like i accepted it.When i say Armenian problem,it means the problem with Armenians. People sees this event as it SURELY happened.Yes we did kill Armenians.Thousands of them but it doesn't fit terms of "Genocide"I will post a detailed post about what happened in 1.WW .But it's 41 degrees outside,and i'm pretty lazy I don't know what positive things would happen if we accepted it.Perhaps some people may say"oh the stubborn Turks accepted it".Thats the only positive thing that would happen.Our government does what Europe wants all the time,we're like their pet in many ways.This conflict is our resistance.

Quote Reply

kane RE:Roman 8/6/2006 5:30:58 AM

Ok then please can you prove me that it has happned.I wonder what the other sides knows.You may be right,maybe it was a genocide but from what i know,it doesn't seem like one.I want you to say "It is a genocide because Turks did ................."

Quote Reply

Roman RE:Roman 8/6/2006 1:45:45 PM

This is the definition of genocide according to the United Nations Convention on Genocide: "Article 2 In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: (a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. " The Armenian Genocide fits the bill not only on one count (which would be sufficient to classify it as a genocide) but on at least three counts. That clearly makes it a genocide. I would probably add a condition that a genocide must involve the above on a mass scale and must affect a significant portion of the targeted population (and most experts would probably agree on this). Even than, however, Armenian Genocide still qualifies as a genocide. If you need the opinion of independent experts to make up your mind on whether it is a genocide, may I point you to the premier non-partisan international organizations studying genocide: International Association of Genocide Scholars and the Institute for the Study of Genocide. Both of these recognize the Armenian Genocide as a genocide.

Quote Reply

PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 NEXT