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Subject: Kill the 7.62x39 and Save the World
James Dunnigan    8/31/2007 12:16:41 AM

Peacekeepers are desperate to stop all the shooting going on. There are too many people with AK-47 running around, firing at anything and everything. How to stop that? Simple. Outlaw 7.62x39 ammunition. Since the end of the Cold War in 1991, this rifle round has become the biggest killer on the planet. This is the ammo used in the AK-47 and the SKS carbine (a non-automatic rifle with a smaller magazine than the AK-47). You can't get all those weapons collected and destroyed. But you can sharply reduce the supply of ammo. Unlike the rifles, which last a long time, the ammo has a limited shelf life, and it tends to get used real quick. There are millions of half-century old rifles still out there, and many that go back nearly a century (to World War I). But ammo degrades rapidly, and people tend to use it. Empty rifles are basically awkward clubs, and left without ammo long enough, will be discarded by their owners.

Over twenty million AK-47s went on to the market after the Cold War ended. All those huge military establishments in communist nations were dissolved with the collapse of communism. The unneeded weapons were sold off, legally or illegally. Suddenly, angry people around the world had cheap automatic weapons. And cheap ammunition (10-20 cents a round for 7.62x39). Where before, tribal or warlord warfare was a lot of guys with spears, knives, machetes and bows, now they had automatic weapons. The old style warfare produced a low body count, because the weapons at hand were not all that effective, and it took a lot of courage to get up close and personal with that stuff. But an AK-47, and a few dollars worth of ammo, suddenly made turned any twelve year old kid into a mass murderer. Armed mayhem was now cheaper, and deadlier, and millions of people died in Africa, and elsewhere, as a result.

It's probably not practical to expect the 7.62x39 round to be successfully outlawed. Cocaine and heroin are illegal, and look at how much of that stuff is to be had. But the big difference here is that it's poor people who are getting this ammo, and killing each other with it. The illegal drug business is driven by huge demand in affluent nations.

The AK-47 is doing the most damage in poor countries. So if you make manufacture of the 7.62x39 illegal, most of the large producers will have to shut down, or face international sanctions. The small, outlaw, producers will make a lot of money, because suddenly 7.62x39 ammo will be real scarce, and the price will skyrocket. Not as much of the ammo will be available for all those weapons. Fewer bullets means fewer dead bodies. The poor users are not stupid, and they can count. Expensive ammo means you use the weapons less. That means fewer people get killed.

 
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HistoryAnalyst70    Just like Gun Control   10/15/2007 1:03:42 PM
Seems to be just another pacifist pipe dream, similar to the idea that we can stop crime in America by registering and limiting sales of ammunition for handguns, rifles, and shotguns.  The rationale is the same:  ammunition has a limited shelf life, so it is easy to dry up the supply.  A high-minded thought, but I wouldn't count on it working.
 
The problem is that the "limited shelf life" is essentially untrue.  Ammunition often has a shelf life measured in decades, not years, and that may soon become "centuries".  I am perfectly happy to buy U.S. military surplus ammunition that was made in 1960, with the assurance that it is 99.9% reliable (actually, I've never had a misfire with such ammunition, but I'm just giving the pacifists the benefit of the doubt).  I would be willing to defend my life with that ammo.
 
In case anyone is curious, the longevity of modern smokeless powder is continuously being tested by some of the major powder manufacturers, and at least one of them has a batch of the first smokeless powder they ever made....in 1896, or 111 years ago.  Guess what?   Every year, they take a small quantity and load up some cartridges and test fire it, and it works perfectly, with 95% or more of the original potency.  Military ammo since WW I has had sealant applied at the neck and at the primer, so it doesn't usually absorb water/oil.
 
In fact, if someone offered to bet me $1,000,000 vs. my life to stand in front of a Civil War Spencer rifle loaded with Civil War manufactured ammo while it is fired, I wouldn't take that bet.  I've seen people fire such ammo, and it works fairly frequently....perhaps 50%, which is far worse odds than Russian roulette.  And this ammo is loaded with old-fashioned black powder, which is less stable than smokeless and more subject to moisture deterioration, and it is loaded in rimfire cases, which are not sealed as well as modern centerfire ammo.
 
Just like the 1925 Washington Naval Treaty and other pacifist fantasizing about the "weapons as evil entities", let's not get led down the primrose path of ineffective policies.  If 7.62 x 39 ammo were totally banned, mass production could be started by any outlaw state or company or terror group that has enough money to buy modest machine tooling.  A Dillon 1050 hand-cranked loading press can produce 1000 rounds per hour and it costs only a few hundred dollars.  A small electrical or hydraulic driven press can produce 10 times that much.
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If the UN wants to stop terrorists or guerillas, it will have to take a much more pro-active approach.
 
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Zad Fnark       10/16/2007 11:32:06 AM
Back when I was a know-it-all teenager, I pulled apart a hundred year old cartridge.  When I poured out the contents, I thought:  Hmmmm, looks like dirt.  I then applied a match to the "dirt" where I almost lost my eyebrows.  That's when I learned the difference between smokeless and black powder.
 
As old as it was, it went up in a flash.  I've shot plenty of 50 year old ammunition.  Unless it's poorly stored, it's got plenty of life.
 
ZF-
 
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Scorpene       10/17/2007 5:09:50 AM
 
Once you manufacture the Berdan-primed steel case (or the brass one, with the primer pocket) you just need the powder and projectile... then you can throw the works into the reloading press, and zippo.  The ammo is much easier to fabricate than the rifle.  There are too many nations that have the 7.62 X 39 round production facilities, and that would laugh at any of our attempts to outlaw the round.  Thing is, I and many Americans would be laughing right along with them, and would take it as further evidence that we need to secede the South from the Union again.  Or, at least, sabotage (French word, sabot, wooden shoe) the law until the bureaucrats who thought of it drink themselves to death or commit suicide following their being caught in a compromising position with some creature.
 
They aren't ever going to get my stash of ammo for my Klatches, I can promise you that.  Several thousand rounds....
 
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