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Subject: Doing The Math On Ukrainian Conquest
SYSOP    1/26/2015 5:27:55 AM
 
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Nate Dog    The big shame   1/26/2015 5:40:53 PM
Is that apparently we are all Chamberlins. 
Every article i encounter about Ukraine approaching western powers asking to purchase modern weapons is always some fear mongered denial. Be it U.S. limiting what they'll supply or Israel pussying out of supplying Ukraine with UAV's, always with some siteation of not wanting to anger the Russians, they've threatened to supply X to Y unless you pull out of such deals.
Why? Russia will always supply X anyway. They're the international arms merchants 2 dollar whores, there are no limits to who they will sell to or what they will sell them.
Why allow ourselves to be bullied by such threats. Where does it end? How much more bullying do we agree to? Will it eventually devolve to a state where Putin makes such grandioues announcements, trade with us, remember if you don't, the sleeping bear has the worlds largest nuclear arsenal.
Perhaps, Je Suis Chamberline is an appropriate placard for western leaders to carry around. 
 
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Dangle    Full of yankee shit   1/28/2015 11:10:12 AM
This article is a perfect example of American ignorance and an unbending believe that they, and anyone they honour with there support are committed to a glorious war against the axis of evil(whoever that is at the time.) and there exceptional leadership will lead to there foes defeat. The war in Donbass to me is a perfect example of U.S. hegemony in that the U.S. has sponsored a coup, then encouraged a racist war. The poor people of East Ukraine have been denied the use of the language and face the destruction of there society by an openly Nazi and privately owned groups who have now been given tanks and heavy weapons but the U.S. How can you ignore this? I think that it is hard to deny that Russia is sending large amounts of aid, both military and humanitarian, perhaps together with "volunteer drivers" but would the united States stand by and watch a socialist uprising in say. Porto Rico with English banned and a brutal occupation? Russian speaking fighters along with Irish, Catalans and many other ethnic groups are aiding the defence of cities from a Nazi force that will take savage revenge for there crushing defeats, but at who's hand? The Donbass fights have been fighting for over a year now and are well trained and motivated, no conscription and 4 days training as others do. talking of conscription, this latest wave is not doing well, I have seen claims that a Hungarian region in the west hired 26 buses for a trip to safety, not Europe as you would think but Russia!! Putin has offered to extend the 30 day limit for men in racial danger. The New nation guard units have quickly developed a nasty habit of putting "unreliable men" in unsustainable positions covered by them, this has led to infighting within the Ukrainian forces. At the end of the day a federal Ukraine may have worked 6 months ago before the shelling but now what? Even the Ukrainians call vast areas of the Russian speaking population "unsafe" for small unit activity even in daylight, this is part of the reason the rebels have been so effective, Ukies move and someone calls the boys, night ,night. All I can see now is liberation of occupied areas and a frozen conflict, in the years to come will the U.S. and U.K. etal pay the heating bill? there's talk of no more contacts been issued through Ukraine at all and all sales will go through Turkey, learn to live in a newer world order.
 
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Nate Dog    opinions are like assholes   1/28/2015 4:36:27 PM
Everybodys got one.
 
Having said that, was the above tripe really yours? Do you actually believe the shit you write or is it just a paid job?
I can't fathom how mass social media spamming can be cost effective, but having said that, I'm not versed in modern day autocratic population control. Maybe its just what it costs and so regimes pay it gladly.
Before you accuse me of smoking weed, as all you ilk are fond of doing when questioned about the nonsense they post, i must ask.
Why not move somewhere where you aren't forced to post crap like the above for a few rubbles a week? You're educated, know how to operate a computer, why not go elsewhere? Believe me, the grass is definitely greener when there's less corruption and coercion of the populace to do its masters bidding.
Think about it. 
 
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Lance Blade       1/29/2015 8:18:33 AM
What's funny is that these people seem to think East Ukrainians overwhelmingly support the separatists, which is highly questionable. Rebel field commanders sometimes make youTube interviews where they seem genuinely surprised why so few East Ukrainians join their ranks. They don't seem to get that trashing the place where people live is not going to get these people to die for you. And recruitment rates in Russophone Ukraine are higher than in Western Ukraine... probably because the war is closer there and no-one wants THAT to come to their hometown and turn it into another Donetsk. 
 
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Nate Dog    Nobody thinks that   1/29/2015 5:13:21 PM
Seriously,
No Ukrainian supports the rebels. There are no rebels. There are only Russians, orchestrating a piecemeal invasion of Ukraine, snipping off small enough chunks at a time to ensure they don't solicit an armed response from the west. Very clever Russian method of waging war.
The goal is to have as much coast line open to them into the  black sea as possible. They want a warm sea port.
Apart from which, they want to deny Ukraine any kind of coast. If they manage to make it into a landlocked country, then Ukraine will decline into even more of a 3rd rate state making it even easier pickings...
 
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Lance Blade       1/30/2015 3:19:11 AM
I don't see anything clever about what the Russians are doing. They are deliberately making themselves look beatable,  they operate with self-imposed restrictions, don't use their air assets or combined arms properly... this meat grinder wouldn't continue had the Russians grown a pair and just annexed what they wanted. Instead they mess around doing God only knows what. They are waging war in the worst possible way. In fact I get the distinct impression they don't know themselves what they want to achieve in Ukraine. It's like the West with Syria, supporting rebels and hoping it will somehow turn good even though, by the rules of warfare, it blatantly won't.
 
And there are Ukrainians among the rebels. Not that they're very important (it is Russian logistics that drives this) but there is loads of local cannon fodder. Especially now when it's the only job there is. 
 
There is an elephant-in-the-room question. Why are Russians actually so keen on taking Ukraine? The EU won't mind, they already have impoverished 3rd world countries to look after. NATO is only interested in Ukraine because the longer Russia keeps bleeding resources there the less likely they are to try anything stupid in a NATO country. I have been talking and listening to Russians for ages, and I do not see much enthusiasm for taking Ukraine (or even Donbass) over there either. So, if Russians don't want it, and Europeans don't want it, and Americans don't want it, why is there a war over this wonderful 'prize' of a country? In fact, why is there a war waged over its crappiest bits (Crimea and Donbass, both subsidised)?  
 
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Nate Dog    Lance   1/31/2015 8:33:59 AM
The last time a major European power decided to simply Annex a minor European power, British, French plus American intervention kicked that power do badly up the ass, they effectively knocked war out of them, for 70 years so far and counting. Should Russians be overly obvious about what they are doing, they could find themselves in a shooting war they have no interest in waging with their biggest customers, and lets face it, they've no chance of winning.
 
As to why, Keffler will tell you Ukraine is the largest repository of shale oil in Europe. 
I think its far more prosaic. Putin is feeling his years, worried about his own/Russias growing irrelevance, and looking for something to distract his populace from the growing internal turmoil. Things aren't peachy in Russia, Putins increasingly plutocratic type of rule is growing worse, the Elite are now more obvious about it, and your average russians lot is worse than it was even a couple of years ago. Russia's economy started coming apart at the seems long before the Ukrainin sanctions or plunging oil prices started nailing the coffin shut.
Lastly, never underestimate access to the sea. Its critically vital to any nation. Russias other ports are into the pacific (where less than 10% of Russians live) or into the Baltic, which freezes over for half the year. Crimea was something Russia really needs if she truly feels threatened.  

So, not a popular war in Russia.
I'll be honest, I'm not even sure that is true. Your anecdotal evidence aside, that may not be the case. Things I've been reading are that Russia is undergoing a nationalistic groundswell to rival Anglo/Franco/Germanic pre WWI. Russians seem to have an amazing capacity to accept state provided propaganda at face value. Recent polls showed over 85% of respondents believed that Ukraine was responsible for downing that Malaysian airliner. Some conspiracy theory that they were gunning for Putin on an earlier flight. They just lurve conspiracy theories those cookie russians.
 
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keffler25       1/31/2015 2:29:58 PM
Atomic weapons + Putin + Russian paranoia = CRAZY.
 
This is the one time Obama got it right. Tread gingerly.
 
 
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Spiky    Cut Losses   2/1/2015 10:23:51 AM
"More Russians are doing the math and most are concluding that Donbas is not worth the price the country is being forced to pay.".......... if Putin was smart, he would let go of Ukraine/Donbas. Consolidate in Crimea politically, economically, and militarily. Take good will for leaving Ukraine alone and build on gains taken in the South: Crimea and Abkhazia on the Black Sea. By now, the international community for the most part would leave him alone with the Russian gains in Crimea and those in the North Caucasus region.
 
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Nate Dog    Cookie russians   2/1/2015 9:44:02 PM
Tread carefully is easy when choosing not to tread in at all.
Who'd've thought it'd take a Democrat to revert American policy to isolationism. Mind you, only Nixon could go to China so why not the converse.

Meanwhile,
its nice to see that Russians also get stuck with inferior weaponry due to political favour currying and corporate profiteering. Evens the field.
 
 
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