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Subject: Telegraph UK - Ukraine crisis: Poland asks Nato to station 10,000 troops on its territory
CJH    4/19/2014 10:16:54 PM

Making a firm case for a NATO intervention in Ukraine would be an example of moral leadership which leadership seems to be elusive at present. In turn, an absence of this leadership in a crisis might fragment NATO. What more could Putin hope for?

article

"Poland asked Nato to station 10,000 troops on its territory on Tuesday as a visible demonstration of the Alliance's resolve to defend all its members after Russia's seizure of Crimea.

Nato foreign ministers met in Brussels to consider requests for soldiers to be deployed in Poland and the Baltic States, all of which share borders with Russia. "

...

"Diplomats are concerned that a permanent Nato military presence in member states bordering Russia could lead President Vladimir Putin to counter by bolstering his own forces near sensitive frontiers.

They are particularly reluctant to place any Nato troops in Ukraine itself. ''It's not the most opportune moment to have a visible Nato presence in Ukraine. It would be a golden pretext for the Russians to reinforce their presence,'' said a diplomat."

Can you see what's probably coming?

 
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CJH       4/19/2014 10:24:11 PM
A thought -

Considering the reputation of the FSB (KGB, MGB, NKVD, et al) would it not be surprising if many EU and US people in key government and media positions have been compromised through FSB bribery and extortion? Could not this compromise in turn be a significant factor where moral leadership is either weak or absent?

 
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WarNerd       4/20/2014 3:04:18 AM
A thought -
 
Considering the reputation of the FSB (KGB, MGB, NKVD, et al) would it not be surprising if many EU and US people in key government and media positions have been compromised through FSB bribery and extortion? Could not this compromise in turn be a significant factor where moral leadership is either weak or absent?
Nope, it is just natural talent.
 
Politics now is more about avoiding making mistakes instead of leading by action. So what is really happening is that all the leaders are engaged in a game of ‘chicken’, trying to get someone else to move first so that they can be blamed when something goes wrong. The result resembles inaction in the absence of a leader. The current US Administration is firmly in this mold, to the point that they can’t even change their own policies because no one is willing to lead and take potential blame (ex. closing Gitmo). Major US foreign policy is now dictated other countries like France in Africa, German in NATO, and Russia in Syria. In the absence of another country to take the blame the Administration just flails around aimlessly.
 
The media people are part of the problem with their constant quest to cast blame makes all politicians gun-shy and blatant political bias.
 
But the real source of the problem is the self selected clique running the higher education system that cranks out those idiots in media and politics.
 
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CJH       4/20/2014 2:00:55 PM
"But the real source of the problem is the self selected clique running the higher education system that cranks out those idiots in media and politics" Ok. Let's end all government financing and control of education. Public assistance can take the form of vouchers. Problem solved.
 
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WarNerd       4/21/2014 3:30:47 AM
"But the real source of the problem is the self selected clique running the higher education system that cranks out those idiots in media and politics"
 
Ok. Let's end all government financing and control of education. Public assistance can take the form of vouchers.
Problem solved.
 Should have been clearer, I am referring to colleges and universities.
 
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CJH       4/22/2014 8:41:25 AM
I was referring mostly to them also. But the whole system is corrupted because it is used as a patronage jobs program to benefit the big government party. Education's true purpose takes a back seat.
 
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smitty237    Born agents   4/24/2014 12:47:10 PM
I don't know that the FSB needs to recruit foreign agents in the West anymore.  There are too many Liberals in academia, public service, and the media that have been raised from birth to be sympathetic to socialism and critical of capitalism.  Even a few Conservatives and Libertarians have adopted the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" philosphy regarding Putin.  If he's making Obama look weak he can't be all that bad, can he? 
 
I can understand why the Poles and the Baltic States are quaking in their boots and demanding all kinds of support from NATO.  They are very aware of Russia's true nature, and know damn well that the Russians want to control them again, either through intimidation or by running the Russian flag up capitol building.  The Poles, Estonians, Czechs, Hungarians, et al., joined NATO to protect them from their former masters, but NATO's paltry contribution to its eastern members in the face of the Ukrainian crises cannot be instilling a lot of confidence. 
 
The biggest problem from the American point of view is that we are so war weary as a nation that there is a large portion of the voting public that would avoid war at any cost, no matter what happens.  I have heard from several people that we shouldn't go to war even if Russia invades Estonia or Poland, NATO commitments be damned.  When I point out that this would kill NATO, they just shrug and mumble something along the lines of, "Well, we shouldn't be over there anyway."  Obama is nervous, and with good reason.  He thought he could unify the world through sheer personality and will, only to find out that bullies like Putin are attracted to guys like Obama only because they know they can push them around and get away with it. 
 
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CJH       4/26/2014 11:29:01 PM
"I don't know that the FSB needs to recruit foreign agents in the West anymore. There are too many Liberals in academia, public service, and the media that have been raised from birth to be sympathetic to socialism and critical of capitalism. Even a few Conservatives and Libertarians have adopted the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" philosphy regarding Putin. If he's making Obama look weak he can't be all that bad, can he?

I can understand why the Poles and the Baltic States are quaking in their boots and demanding all kinds of support from NATO. They are very aware of Russia's true nature, and know damn well that the Russians want to control them again, either through intimidation or by running the Russian flag up capitol building. The Poles, Estonians, Czechs, Hungarians, et al., joined NATO to protect them from their former masters, but NATO's paltry contribution to its eastern members in the face of the Ukrainian crises cannot be instilling a lot of confidence.

The biggest problem from the American point of view is that we are so war weary as a nation that there is a large portion of the voting public that would avoid war at any cost, no matter what happens. I have heard from several people that we shouldn't go to war even if Russia invades Estonia or Poland, NATO commitments be damned. When I point out that this would kill NATO, they just shrug and mumble something along the lines of, "Well, we shouldn't be over there anyway." Obama is nervous, and with good reason. He thought he could unify the world through sheer personality and will, only to find out that bullies like Putin are attracted to guys like Obama only because they know they can push them around and get away with it."

Obama has looked weak because he is weak. Obama is typical of his party. Jimmy Carter thought he was smarter than everyone and wound up looking ineffectual.

The problem with Carter and Obama is that they are legends in their own minds and those only.

Putin isn't controlled by or afraid of the liberal media as Republicans are. Putin can't be dismissed through typical Washington spin. Through Putin, everyone finds out that the emperor has no clothes.

Probably one result Putin wants is to erode, bit by bit, the credibility of the US and of NATO. I think he has made headway there because he has had a lot of help from Obama. If he can sow mutual mistrust amongst the western nations he has gotten closer to splitting NATO.

Obama is focused exclusively on domestic issues, his war on America, to the exclusion of a cogent foreign policy.

War weariness results from poor political organization and direction out of Washington alone. The biggest American problem is that we have no effectual leadership. Not only must the war be a just one but we have to have the ability to actually accomplish something worthwhile through our involvement, i.e. win.

We have to know why there must be a NATO this long after the USSR collapsed. We have to know how our own national interests necessitate our intervention in central Europe in behalf of NATO, i.e. Ukraine, Poland, etc. Someone needs to make this clear. Does anyone actually believe Obama is capable of doing that? This absence of firm, clear and confident political direction is what endangers NATO and what endangers Ukraine.

 
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