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Subject: Russia in the future.
CCCP    4/11/2003 5:19:04 PM
Any thoughts?
 
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duffbeer    RE:Russia in the future.   4/11/2003 5:35:09 PM
Declining population, continued government corruption, organized crime, poverty, growing Chinese population in the western part of the country, never ending war in Chechnya, underpaid undertrained military, etc. But other than that, things look great!
 
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CCCP    RE:Russia in the future.   4/11/2003 7:28:08 PM
US propaganda working great!
 
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IronSeeker    RE:Russia in the future.   4/11/2003 7:39:20 PM
please explain that CCCP, i'm not very knowledgable about US propaganda on russia (im not american) while he didnt list any positives, all the things duffbeer said i thaught were pretty well known to be true. can you explain how some of them arent true? thanks
 
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CCCP    RE:Russia in the future.   4/11/2003 9:46:29 PM
If you're not american it's gonna be tough to understand. During times when the US and Soviets were "fighting" Cold War, americans were really happy if their russky friends would screw-up at something( sometimes they were even celebrating such events). It's obviously to understand that the problems in Russia are overblown, in case if you're looking on 'em through the american media-sources.
 
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CCCP    something to think about........   4/11/2003 9:55:43 PM
NewsMax: >>>Comparing Russian Military Spending to America's The liberal American media try to impress readers by saying that Russia?s military budget in U.S. dollars is more than 10 times less than America?s military spending. However, the same media doesn?t want to inform the American people that it is impossible to compare Russian and U.S. defense budgets. If the U.S. enlisted military personnel?s salary is several hundred dollars a month, a major part of Russia?s more than 1 million soldiers are conscripts who do not receive any salary. The government provides them with limited food rations and uniforms, pays them only a few rubles monthly as reimbursement for several packs of cheap Russian cigarettes or for a couple packs of the favorite, Marlboro (usually produced illegally in unidentified countries). Also, the monthly salary of the U.S. officer corps amounts to thousands of dollars. Russian officers of the same ranks get a paltry monthly salary of $100-$150, and generals are paid a mere $200-$250 a month, and that?s in rubles. It is no surprise that Russian military officials are selling everything to everybody who is willing to pay cash, and Russian generals are building "dachas," or mansions, which in real terms cost millions of dollars. Accordingly, if U.S. weapons systems cost American taxpayers millions of dollars, Russian weapons cost millions of rubles, which amount to thousands of dollars. U.S. combat ships cost American taxpayers billions of dollars, but Russian combat ships ? billions of rubles but only millions of dollars, and so on. In other words, Russia?s military is not in very bad shape, as America?s liberal media are trying to tell us. There is no doubt that according to the new military budget Moscow will have a chance to use additional billions of dollars, coming from high oil prices in the international market and from realization of the monetary benefits of the flat tax system, for the development of its military machine and preparations for war against the U.S. and NATO.
 
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IronSeeker    RE:something to think about........   4/11/2003 10:21:21 PM
>Accordingly, if U.S. weapons systems cost American taxpayers millions of dollars, Russian weapons cost millions of rubles, which amount to thousands of dollars. U.S. combat ships cost American taxpayers billions of dollars, but Russian combat ships ? billions of rubles but only millions of dollars, and so on. i disagree here. and my logic should persuade you. i agree that soldiers pay is much lower in russia, and this provides a tremendous savings. however, to claim that russian products costs "rubles" instead of "dollars" is nonsense. why not then, produce a universially marketable product, say a good car, which would cost you "rubles" and sell it at 1/2 the price of competitors worldwide (factor in agressive import tax) and make a huge profit. re-invest the profit in more of these cars, and voila... unending economic expansion. the fact is, this isn't possible. ok, you're sure to say, just as we don't pay our soldiers, so we don't pay our scientists, engineers... (or at least pay them very little) well, maybe thats why the results they produce are sub-par on a world stage. if what you are talking about is true, why aren't there russian cars in any other countries??? yes, there are countries that would be glad to import superior russian products that cost a fraction of their japaneese/us/sk/german... competitors. the facts are there. next point: >"There is no doubt that according to the new military budget Moscow will have a chance to use additional billions of dollars, coming from high oil prices in the international market and from realization of the monetary benefits of the flat tax system, for the development of its military machine and preparations for war against the U.S. and NATO. " why are you preparing for war with the US and NATO??? shouldn't you focus on economic development? its this mentality that is keeping you down (maybe, thats just my opinion) some GDP numbers: (cia 2002 world factbook) russia GDP $1.27 trillion (2002 est.) usa GDP $10.082 trillion (2001 est.) NATO GDP... i won't bother figuring it out. oh here's a few more: JAPAN GDP: $3.55 trillion (2002 est) South Korea: $931 billion (2002 est.) please don't get me wrong, i'm a HUGE fan of Russian music, and millitary history. I'm amazed at what russian scientists have been able to do in less-then-optimal circumstances. but i fear that russia (and i am no means an expert) must concentrate on economic expansion. if you can, as you say, create millitary equipment at a fraction of the cost, do the same with commercial goods!!! then you won't need to war with the US or NATO... you'll prosper. Iron Seeker
 
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evlstu    RE:something to think about........   4/12/2003 12:59:03 AM
When talking about the US defense budget versus anyone else's defense budget, many people forget alot of things, a few of which include: -over half of the US military budget is spent on personel; that includes the servicesmen's (and women's) healthcare as well as their family's healthcare, education (both for the military and college), training (combat and noncombat), housing for both the servicemen and family -alot of big ticket items, such as those big carriers -alot of research, including Hi-Tech, testbeds items that are built soely for data collection, and items that never see the light of day -the US pays for alot of other people's military, incluing stuff it never gets reimbursed for. Also, that huge budget is why the US military performs so well and as an American taxpayer, I think, for the most part, that it was money well spent. I'm sure most of the people in Iraq, Afganistan, and New York would agree.
 
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Phoenix Rising    RE:something to think about........   4/12/2003 1:18:13 AM
evlstu wrote: -over half of the US military budget is spent on personel; that includes the servicesmen's (and women's) healthcare as well as their family's healthcare, education (both for the military and college), training (combat and noncombat), housing for both the servicemen and family" --> Actually, however, personnel costs as a proportion of defense spending are significantly lower in America than in Europe (and even, I believe, in Russia), because of all-but-eliminated budgets in the rest of the world on R&D. The Brits have a few projects going (microwave and directed-energy weapons), but Sukhoi and Mikoyan-Gurevich are both hurting for money (which is why buying Russian aircraft is still popular despite superior American designs ... you can get a darn good deal on them, and they aren't that much worse, particularly the newer ones). The real difference in the personnel component is the fact that our all-volunteer military is still designed to be a lethal fighting force. In many European nations, as well as Russia, there are some units that still serve that purpose, but many more that exist solely to deflate unemployment figures. That isn't supposed to be the purpose of an army (at least, not to an Anglo-American audience). --Phoenix Rising
 
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Phoenix Rising    RE:something to think about........   4/12/2003 1:21:51 AM
CCCP wrote: "There is no doubt that according to the new military budget Moscow will have a chance to use additional billions of dollars, coming from high oil prices in the international market and from realization of the monetary benefits of the flat tax system, for the development of its military machine and preparations for war against the U.S. and NATO." --> "War against the US and NATO?!" And you accuse *us* of listening to propaganda?! For the record, I do read Russian media, though only English-language sources because I can't read Russian. There is no war brewing between the US and Russia, it's more likely that Russia will be a member of NATO in a few years than its archrival. As to what duffbeer noted: do you believe that crime and corruption are not problems in Russia? Or that your success in Chechnya looks anything like ours in Afghanistan? It would take a miracle of media manipulation to make that look credible. --Phoenix Rising
 
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CCCP    To ironseeker, commie, phoenix......   4/12/2003 3:54:09 PM
Yo, commie, wake up! china is not ally for Russia! You're just our consumers as india, pakistan, cuba, Nkorea, Skorea, etc,etc,etc...... and no more than that. You bought our Soyuz SS, which was fliyng in space more than 30 years ago. And we won't be allies with anyone except western countries. >>> but Sukhoi and Mikoyan-Gurevich are both hurting for money Oh,god. It was about 7 years ago. >>>superior American designs Can't remember what you're talking about....... Why everyone's accusing me in something? The article I wrote is just quotes from newsmax. >>>do you believe that crime and corruption are not problems in Russia? Or that your success in Chechnya looks anything like ours in Afghanistan? Well, ok - Russia is bunch of screw-up suckers. Are you happy? One last question: If Russia would become a part of NATO, who would benefit from it?
 
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