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Subject: Another Rhineland
SYSOP    9/1/2008 5:26:45 AM
 
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CJH       9/1/2008 11:40:50 AM
There is the other option for the West. We could simply accede to Russia's apparent intent and let Russia have its way with Central Europe. That way there would be no near term threat of war.
 
The problem with the EU's type of current outward passivity is that it leaves open the possibility that its constituent countries will later become alarmed, shift to the other extreme and then prosecute an ill timed and disastrously costly campaign against Russia.
 
What is needed now is to see into the future and commit to a choice that the West will and can stand by through to a conclusion. The most credible choice of course would be to discredit Putin as early as possible through the use of all the means necessary.
 
 
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David.R    strange comparisson   9/1/2008 12:08:34 PM
Strange that you compare Russia with Nazi Germany, one could say the same about the US, invadeing nations for oil, torturing and bombing civilians, weapons trading with dictators, attacking dmocratic countries... the list is very long and not so pretty, you are in a bad position to judge someone else, there is a biblical saying that is about this situation, something in someone's eye and you're own.
 
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afrc       9/1/2008 3:46:07 PM
Strange that you compare Russia with Nazi Germany, one could say the same about the US, invadeing nations for oil, torturing and bombing civilians, weapons trading with dictators, attacking dmocratic countries... the list is very long and not so pretty, you are in a bad position to judge someone else, there is a biblical saying that is about this situation, something in someone's eye and you're own.
 
Well, US claims that it does not attack countries for no reason... and it leaves when asked. Think Philippines... the government asked US to leave in 1992 and it left. Now Iraqi government asks for a withdrawal timetable and US negotiates instead of dictating and ordering. The idea that USA invades countries for oil is pure speculation at best. War destroyed what little oil infrastructure Iraq had and only now Iraq got back to pre-war level. Saddam had country under control and it was easier to play nice with him and invest into oil production safely and cheaply. Oil still belongs to Iraqi government and it keeps all the profits. Iraqi government has chosen Chinese company (over US) for oil contracts. Does it look like war for oil to you? Also I think that there is a difference between selling weapons to dictators and building reactors for them, and protecting them from sanctions in UN.
 
Now I have no problem with Russia showing Saakashvili his place, but the way it was done and the way they spin it tells me that there is more to the story than simple defeating aggression. Giving Russian passports to Ossetians is an interesting move that shows that Russians had no intention to recognize S Ossetia as an independent nation from the start. Yes, USA is not perfect, but at least I know that people will kick administration all over the floor if we annex some country, while I suspect that most Russians will cheer Russian government on if this happens in Russia. Many people believe that some Near Abroad countries (at least Slavic ones) rightfully belong to Russia.
 
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LC       9/1/2008 4:31:34 PM

Strange that you compare Russia with Nazi Germany, one could say the same about the US, invadeing nations for oil, torturing and bombing civilians, weapons trading with dictators, attacking dmocratic countries... the list is very long and not so pretty, you are in a bad position to judge someone else, there is a biblical saying that is about this situation, something in someone's eye and you're own.

Dude, what are you talking about? Iraq? Then let's do a little fact checking, shall we? The United States stole no oil wells, punished the few American soldiers engaged in torture, did not deliberately target civilians, and Saddam was no democrat. (If by "weapons trading with dictators," you are referring to countries such as Saudi Arabia, then I'll admit that even a blind squirrel such as yourself finds the occasional acorn.)
While the Russian government is clearly not threatening a Holocaust, its thirst for empire is as strong as ever. "Self-determination" for Ossetia and Abkhazia is code for absorption. (Otherwise, Chechnya and Dagestan would be independent countries by now.) So who's next? The rest of Georgia? Azerbaijan? Moldova? The Baltic States? This is only the beginning.
 
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oOOOo    Putin knows his history...   9/2/2008 10:19:23 AM
Vlad the Annexer has learned from history. Not only do we have the example of Nazi Germany taking advantage of western Europe's general limpness prior to WW2, we have the example of the armed, aroused and capable Allies losing interest and allowing the USSR to swallow eastern europe after WW2. How many millions had their lives ruined because our leadership lacked backbone then - much as it does now.
 
While a few do know the slogans ("The price of freedom is eternal vigilance") after 5 or 7 years of anti-islamoloon war, depending on when you start your count, we seem to be war-weary and dominated by latter day Neville Chamberlains: Barack Hussein Obama, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, John "Semper I" Murtha. Putin understands us possibly better than we understand ourselves and is cynically willing to use that understanding.
 
Does Vlad regard any part of Nazi Germany's anshluss as a bridge too far? Has Vlad learned any lessons about the crumbling of the Soviet empire? Do either of those lessons involve good governance? Or merely more violent and ruthless practices by the soviet police state? Is it possible to be more cynical than observing the forms of democracy and term limits whilst blatently continuing to rule with the current russian president serving as a farce?
 
How much of the "near abroad" will the craven leadership of western civilization tolerate being absorbed? Does their "peace in our time" mindset have any limits at all? Has our leadership learned nothing from history?
 
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DragonReborn       9/2/2008 3:21:46 PM



Strange that you compare Russia with Nazi Germany, one could say the same about the US, invadeing nations for oil, torturing and bombing civilians, weapons trading with dictators, attacking dmocratic countries... the list is very long and not so pretty, you are in a bad position to judge someone else, there is a biblical saying that is about this situation, something in someone's eye and you're own.




Dude, what are you talking about? Iraq? Then let's do a little fact checking, shall we? The United States stole no oil wells
 
punished the few American soldiers engaged in torture, did not deliberately target civilians, and Saddam was no democrat. (If by "weapons trading with dictators," you are referring to countries such as Saudi Arabia, then I'll admit that even a blind squirrel such as yourself finds the occasional acorn.)

While the Russian government is clearly not threatening a Holocaust, its thirst for empire is as strong as ever. "Self-determination" for Ossetia and Abkhazia is code for absorption. (Otherwise, Chechnya and Dagestan would be independent countries by now.) So who's next? The rest of Georgia? Azerbaijan? Moldova? The Baltic States? This is only the beginning.
 
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DragonReborn       9/2/2008 3:24:03 PM

 
h!!p://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3904382605215032226
 
h!!p://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2006/mar/20/post4
 
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LC       9/2/2008 3:28:17 PM

Strange that you compare Russia with Nazi Germany, one could say the same about the US, invadeing nations for oil, torturing and bombing civilians, weapons trading with dictators, attacking dmocratic countries... the list is very long and not so pretty, you are in a bad position to judge someone else, there is a biblical saying that is about this situation, something in someone's eye and you're own.

Dude, what are you talking about? Iraq? Then let's do a little fact checking, shall we? The United States stole no oil wells, punished the few American soldiers engaged in torture, did not deliberately target civilians, and Saddam was no democrat. (If by "weapons trading with dictators," you are referring to countries such as Saudi Arabia, then I'll admit that even a blind squirrel such as yourself finds the occasional acorn.)
While the Russian government is clearly not threatening a Holocaust, its thirst for empire is as strong as ever. "Self-determination" for Ossetia and Abkhazia is code for absorption. (Otherwise, Chechnya and Dagestan would be independent countries by now.) So who's next? The rest of Georgia? Azerbaijan? Moldova? The Baltic States? This is only the beginning.
 
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warpig       9/2/2008 4:06:49 PM


h!!p://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3904382605215032226

h!!p://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2006/mar/20/post4

 
Which part was the part about America stealing Iraqi oil wells? <yawn!>
 
 
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jak267       9/2/2008 7:08:27 PM
The main point is that if the Russians hadn't see the world turn its back on Iraq - if they hadn't seen the Liberals and the News Media in the US undermine "The War" THE LIBERATION OF IRAQ from the very beginning - and if they didn't think a Democrat would be the new President - they never would have done this.
 
This is the world that hypocritical Liberalism has worked for all along - and now has created.
 
Until we get rid of the enemies here, we can't get rid of the enemies there.

 
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FT_Italy       9/3/2008 5:37:57 AM

I do not agree with the article title.

In my opinion, Georgian affair is much more like Suedetenland/Czechoslovakia than Rhineland.

And all historical facts matches with Russia's facts.

1919: Germany lost the war, its economy crashed, its military and social system is humiliated, its empire was lost, millions of ethnic Germans are left out of the Reich. 1991: exactly the same things (of course, losing the Cold War) for Russia.

1935-'36: Germany re-militarise Rhineland. Early 2000s: Russia re-militarise itself.

1938: Anschluss, Germany annexes Austria. Early 2000s: pact of union between Russia and Belarus (a soft Anschluss, just not so quick).

1938: Germany menaced Europe of a new Great War for Suedetenland (German-inhabited lands of Czechoslovakia); Europe cedes, and a conference in Munich is attended. 2008: Russia takes by force S Ossetia and Abkhatia, and meances Europe to go at war on Georgia; Europe cedes, a conference in Rome is proposed.
 
1939: Germany occupated Bohemia and Moravia, making them a protectorate. 2008: Russia has no fear to tell Europe that Saakashvili "is/has to be changed" with a new Georgian president much more friendly with Russia.
 
1939: Germany went at war with Poland over Danzig, despite guarantees by UK and France to Poland; 2008: UK and Poland guarantee Ukraine, Russia has no fear to say that they want "all Russians back under Russia" and that Crimea and Sevastopol can stay no longer under Ukraine control.
 
 
 
Another thing I disagree with: Hitler did not have popular support for its expansion wars?!? Maybe someone should study history much better. In Germany countries there was a strong popular support to war, and even in the "coward" Italy (where it is well known that many simpathies went to the Allies) mass rallies and volunteers in the Armed Forces were much more larger than during 1914-'15. Such regimes educated a generation of men to the love for fight, death and conquer, and really few people were opposed to the war, above all until 1941-'42, when the Blitzkrieg seemed to grant Germany a large and quick victory.
 
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DragonReborn       9/3/2008 5:43:24 AM
The part where American contractors misappropriated the best part of $20billion USD of Iraq's oil money on bogus contracts. It's much easier to steal money from oil wells than the oil wells.
 
Don't get me wrong, I'm pro US, however what happened in Iraq after liberation was a travesty.
 
The Republicans screwed Iraq and after $billions of USD (from Iraq's oil money reserves) given to US contractors (e.g. Halliburton) to re-develop Iraq, there is very little to show for it now in the infrastructure of Iraq. Watch the video.
 
Much of that money has dissapeared into War profiters pockets. Many of those profiters are American not Iraqi. Corporate greed was given a free hand in Iraq by the Bush (Cheney) administration.
 
My point is that America's conduct in Iraq is no shinning beacon of hope.

 
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warpig       9/3/2008 9:26:57 AM


Much of that money has dissapeared into War profiters pockets. Many of those profiters are American not Iraqi. Corporate greed was given a free hand in Iraq by the Bush (Cheney) administration.

My point is that America's conduct in Iraq is no shinning beacon of hope.


 
Thank you for explaining it to me.  My point would be that America is pretty much the world's only beacon of hope (or at least the biggest and brightest by far), but it's a fact that in confusion there is profit and that nothing in the middle-east is ever going to come off without confusion.  To me it's c'est la guerre, it's the cost of doing liberation-business.

 
 
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Barca       9/3/2008 11:16:34 AM

The part where American contractors misappropriated the best part of $20billion USD of Iraq's oil money on bogus contracts. It's much easier to steal money from oil wells than the oil wells.


Was that American money that was 'misappropiated' or money from the oil wells?
The allies should be congratulated for not taking the oil for free.  I don't think Russia will be spending their money to rebuild Georgia.
 
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DragonReborn       9/3/2008 6:23:44 PM




The part where American contractors misappropriated the best part of $20billion USD of Iraq's oil money on bogus contracts. It's much easier to steal money from oil wells than the oil wells.







Was that American money that was 'misappropriated' or money from the oil wells?


The allies should be congratulated for not taking the oil for free.  I don't think Russia will be spending their money to rebuild Georgia.



No the $20 Billion I am talking about was Iraqi Government money held by the UN following the over throw of Saddam. The US was placed as trustee over Iraq's money and this was squandered. Watch the video on this link h!!p://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=3904382605215032226&hl=en
 
When the Americans leave Iraq, they will still leave it poorer than before they entered.
 
The Americans should not be congratulated for anything that occurred in the first few years of occupation.
 
Russia's conduct in Georgia is disproportionate and there are worrying signs of increasing Russian bellicosity regarding "near" nations. I completely condemn their actions and believe that the West needs to think carefully about how to manage Russia in the future.
 
But Russia has not misappropriated chunks of Georgia's national treasury. They are not constructing a missile defense system on the borders of the US.
 
I am defending neither side, just suggesting we look at things objectively and think before we start casting stones.Russia and the US are not so dissimilar.
 
As a beacon, I will still stand with the US, but I do not believe in the black and white of the US being good and Russia bad. I would rather be counted with the US than the Russians, but let us not kid ourselves of our own righteousness.
 
At the moment there is perhaps a new power vacuum opening up. Where once the US and West stood triumphant over a crippled USSR/Russia, the balance of power is starting to shift again. Russia is finding new found wealth in its resource rich oil wells and mines and with new confidence no longer feels the need to bow its head to acknowledge US hegemony.
 
Once again forces are stirring in the East and there is the old rattling of sabres, perhaps a portent that a bigger storm is coming.
 
In the middle as always, whether the wolf beats the bear or the bear beats the wolf, the rabbit always loses. 
 
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