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Subject: Effective torpedo ranges.
Aussiegunner    11/16/2004 9:41:57 AM
It recently occurred to me that with sound travelling five times as fast in water as in air, if a torpedo motor was detected once fired by a sub the worth of long-range wire-guided torpedos would be virtually zilch. This is because a shot would give any defending ASW assets heaps of time to mount a strike on the pinpointed location of the sub, which would be tethered to the incoming torpedo. So, I figure that torpedo motors can't be detectable from extreme ranges, or countries wouldn't be building long-range torpedos. So, at what range are they detectable? Also, what angle can such torpedos be fired "off-boresight", given that it is tied to the sub until impact?
I imagine those factors, along with the speed of defending assets for evasion or counter-strike would determine the range at which most engagements not requiring a periscope identification would be fought. Can anybody fill me in? Also, what determines the use of tube launched missiles like Harpoon, which I beleive make a hell of a noise on launch hence need to be done so followed by a rapid deep dive, versus a heavyweight torpedo?
 
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fullamongo    RE:Effective torpedo ranges.    11/16/2004 9:45:06 AM
As far as i know, torpedoes, have an active sonar. they are guided by wire at first and then home in for the kill themselves.
 
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gf0012-aust    RE:Effective torpedo ranges.    11/16/2004 9:56:16 AM
give me a day or so and I can put some numbers on the table - unless USN-MID or someone jumps in. I've got a whole pile of gear from the UDT Conf which I might be able to quote.
 
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Yimmy    RE:Effective torpedo ranges.    11/16/2004 1:04:50 PM
Modern heavy weight torps can go 50-60km's at a reduced speed. And even wire guided torps do not have to be used in such a manner, they are capable of being fierd on a bearing, then cutting the wire and leaving them with their own active/passive sonar to guide them in, or even wake homing in some Russian torps. The Belgrano was sunk by two hits of a spread of three Mk8 toprs, of WWII type... no wire there. Despite the heavy cruiser having two escorts (I do not know of what type), neither detected the sub, and both ran..
 
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Aussiegunner    RE:Effective torpedo ranges.    11/16/2004 9:42:06 PM
Thanks to all for the info on torpedo homing. Yimmy, "The Belgrano was sunk by two hits of a spread of three Mk8 toprs, of WWII type... no wire there. Despite the heavy cruiser having two escorts (I do not know of what type), neither detected the sub, and both ran." Yes, it was never made offical as to why the Mark 8's were used, instead of Tigerfish. I always figured it was just that they wanted to make sure they had an ID via periscope, because of the political ramifications of sinking a neutral ship. From memory, the escorts in question were French A-124 class frigates (think that is the designation). I'm pretty sure they were 60's or 70's class technology and that they didn't have very capable ASW choppers on board. I'll try to find out more about them.
 
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Aussiegunner    Argentinean escorts.   11/16/2004 9:56:45 PM
The designation was in fact A-69, instead of A-124 as I has previously thought. They were large corvettes, with no helecopters and only hull mounted sonar and light-weight torpedos for ASW. No wonder they ran from the Conquorer;-). Here are the specs. Drummond class (Type A69) large patrol corvettes Displacement: 1,250 tons full load Dimensions: 80.5 x 10.3 x 5.2 meters (264 x 34 x 17 feet) Propulsion: 2 diesels, 2 shafts, 12,000 shp, 24 knots Crew: 84 Radar: DRBV 51A air/surface search Sonar: Diodon hull Fire Control: 1 DRBC 32E EW: DR 2000-53 intercept, Alligator jammer, 2 Syllex (33: Dagaie) chaff Armament: 4 MM38 Exocet SSM, 1 100mm DP, 1 dual 40 mm AA, 2 20 mm AA, 2 triple 12.75 inch torpedo tubes Concept/Program: French-built patrol ships, well-liked in Argentine service. The first two were built for the French Navy, sold to South Africa while building, and resold to Argentina when the international arms embargo on South Africa prevented their delivery. Builders: Lorient Naval Dockyard, France. Number Name Year FLT Homeport Notes P31 Drummond 1978 ATL Mar del Plata Ex-Good Hope P32 Guerrico 1978 ATL Mar del Plata Ex-Transvaal P33 Granville 1978 ATL Mar del Plata
 
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Yimmy    RE:Argentinean escorts.   11/17/2004 7:30:03 AM
Surely what they should have done, on seeing the Belgrano sinking to one side (as the Belgranos radio was knocked out), would have been to go t flank speed in a zig zag pattern towards the opercieved threat and fired off their torps in spreads and hope they got lucky or scared the Conqurer off....
 
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Aussiegunner    RE:Argentinean escorts.   11/17/2004 8:27:04 PM
That is probably the proceedure that a competant navy would have undertaken, but competance is something that the entire Argentine military, save some of the airmen, lacked.
 
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USN-MID    RE:Effective torpedo ranges.    11/19/2004 4:08:53 AM
Any numbers gf? I've got various range quotes for some systems, but I'd much rather wait for what you've got, which is probably going to be a lot more significant than what I've got on this. Btw, the Mk8 unguided fish they shot at the Gen Belgrano had a warhead of 7-800lbs of TNT, while the Tigerfish packs about 200lbs of TNT. For ASUW against a large target, sounds pretty sensible to me. I'm also not sure if early gen torpedoes like Tigerfish had the sophistication to detonate directly underneath the ship's keel...
 
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gf0012-aust    RE:Effective torpedo ranges. - USN-MID   11/19/2004 5:02:02 AM
actually I'm not sure what I can put on here, the recent stuff I have is just listing distances (for general release) as all known depths and ranges are from 50-70. the off boresight issue gets down to a lot of variables. preferred is wire guided to maximum cutoff, so an off boresight for those weapons is unrealistic (unless the sub wants to manouvre or drift into a solution slot) the other factor is that some of these have multiple mode seekers.
 
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Aussiegunner    RE:Effective torpedo ranges.    11/20/2004 11:57:55 PM
"I'm also not sure if early gen torpedoes like Tigerfish had the sophistication to detonate directly underneath the ship's keel.." The Tigerfish was one of the most modern torpedo's in the world at the time. I'm pretty sure I have seen something indicating that it could detonate under the ship, though don't know if it would break the back of a ship that size and well armoured.
 
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