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Subject: Best Submarines///
On Watch    7/15/2004 1:50:22 AM
link

Which of these navies has the best submarine?...due to what some consider an overconcentration on engineering caused by the influence of Hyman G. Rickover). However, the United States Navy,
through sheer volume of numbers and solid training (albeit not as good as the British) probably has the best force overall. ? Harold C. Hutchison


Hmmmmmm...Now, what was that I heard about the Brits Pride & Joy tied to the pier at Gibraltar for 6 months(or more?) and the rest of their submarine fleet restricted to Port?

Here's a U.S. Nuke Submarine Song, that illustrates for the layman an idea of the "Engineering" effort required from a crew in the US Fleet.

Sing it, to the tune of ?GHOST RIDERS IN THE SKY?.

Machinery Two had just sat down one early afternoon,
He glanced into the tunnel not expecting any gloom.
When all at once a mighty herd of red hats did he see,
A plowin? through machinery one?and bringin?misery.
Refrain: Yip-ee-i-ay?yip-ee-i-o!
Drill mongers are no fun.

The drills they planned were scramming and a loss of one TG,
The ERS was in the head where he had gone to pee.
The AEA was cleaning and rebrushing an MG,
The EOOW was a?sleeping??the RO it was me! (Refrain)

The trainees were assembled and a ring placed in their nose,
They were told they had to play the game or get beat with a hose.
They ran flooding, famine, petilence, and miseries untold.
I sat there at my panel and watched the plant go cold. (Refrain)

To do our job, that?s open valves and shut these breakers quick,
We had to skip the breakfast served, or we would all be sick.
The eggs were runny, sausage raw, and pancakes way too thick.
I hated what was happening?I?d rather suck?(Refrain)

The Noseconers had a drill, we all sucked rubber then,
You could tell it wasn?t going well, ?cause tempers were real thin.
The hotline, it was all bitched up, and Launcher?s lights were dim,
Then Newsome pulled the lever?and blew San 2 on him. (Refrain)

They grabbed an off-watch section and they dragged them to the brief,
They told them of the drills they planned and ninety kinds of grief.
They talked of scrams and fires and floods and loss of lots of sleep,
I haven?t had this much fun since?I got Herpes from a toilet seat! (Refrain)
Original was by "Fat Fonda" USS J.K.POLK SSBN645 (BLUE), circa 1969

 
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ccooke    RE:Best Submarines///   7/15/2004 9:38:04 AM
How?s On Watch these days? --------Hmmmmmm...Now, what was that I heard about the Brits Pride & Joy tied to the pier at Gibraltar for 6 months(or more?) and the rest of their submarine fleet restricted to Port?---------- I assume you are talking about HMS Tireless? Due to a faulty weld, which created a crack in the primary cooling circuit, the Sub was laid up in Gibraltar. However due to safety concerns from Spain etc. She was laid up for several months. The fault itself was easily repaired but due to political considerations it could not be done in Gibraltar straight away. The rest of the fleet (and by this I assume you are just talking about the Trafalgar?s ) were inspected ASAP??.. Having said that; she was not Britain?s pride and Joy, but she had just undergone an extensive refit. After inspections were carried out on the rest of the Trafalgar class they were allowed to return to normal duties??. So what?s your point On Watch? If you are about to criticize UK safety standards or engineering prowess concerning welds then I would suggest you look into the history of your own submarine fleet before you say a word. The UK ?Got away with it? Unfortunately other Submariners have not been so lucky?? ccooke
 
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ccooke    RE:Best Submarines Brave men indeed ///   7/15/2004 12:07:29 PM
The fracture appeared in a specific area where one alloy was welded to another within the cooling system and as such was regarded as a design flaw. As in the USN any safety problems are treated with the utmost respect and when a fault occurs which can be ?engineered out of the system? It is designated as a design flaw and is rectified ASAP. The actual reasons for the fracture depend on which article you are reading at the time. Possible reasons include, Internal corrosion, (Due to the make up of the reactor coolant) Metal fatigue or an undetected fracture in the weld, when the joint was fabricated. Or possibly all three? Thankfully no lives were lost. As for who has the best submarines I would argue that it?s close enough not to make any difference. Finally I would quote - as near as I can remember a RN Sub captain; I once saw on a documentary. ? You can train and test all you want, but when you submerge anything can happen. That?s why I love this job? Brave men indeed. You would never get me in one??. ccooke link
 
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elcid    Dissimilar metals lead to rust   7/17/2004 12:49:59 PM
It is the battery effect. If any electrolyte is present, any liquid practically to some degree, especially water or steam, you get rust. And it IS a design flaw to put dissimilar metals together - because this is known.
 
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USN-MID    RE:Best Submarines Brave men indeed ///   7/17/2004 12:59:21 PM
Supposedly the Seawolf is by far the best submarine ever built(It damn better be for the price). It really means nothing to me though, I don't know how it stacks up against 688Is or Trafalgars in the H-K sub role. And with all due respect to everybod on this board, it's not likely to be anything we could talk intelligently about...as the sub community is, in some ways, even more secretive than the SpecWar community. Subs are just too weird.
 
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elcid    RE:Best Submarines Brave men indeed ///   7/25/2004 8:05:09 AM
Seawolf is too big and too expensive. I lacks certain kinds of equipment indicating no intention to operate under the ice. But there are some inherent advantages to size. It will be very hard to sink. It has a significant special operations capability, enhanced in the later boats. But in the end it suffers from the problem inherent with small numbers - any given ship can only be one place at a time - and modern sensors and weapons probably mean it can be sent home even if it survives an enemy attack. Odds are long, in that case, there is no other available to take its place. Too many eggs in one basket. Better it would be to have more, cheaper ships, and USN is now taking that road.
 
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gf0012-aust    Dissimilar metals lead to rust   7/25/2004 8:40:03 AM
[And it IS a design flaw to put dissimilar metals together - because this is known.] In any given sub there are probably at least 6 (and upwards to 20) different metal types involved in construction. It's where those dissimilar metals are used that counts.
 
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elcid    It's where those dissimilar metals are used that counts.   7/27/2004 5:53:44 PM
Just so.
 
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Factor X    RE:It's where those dissimilar metals are used that counts.   9/24/2004 11:54:37 PM
You'd be surprised at the amount of fiberglass/epoxy on these boats. Non-conductive and lighter than steel. Believe it of not, Subs have a bouyancy challenge that is being helped by composite materials. We put some 20 tons of composites on VACL subs. And Seawolfs ARE ice-punchers. No doubt about that.
 
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Factor X    RE:Best Submarines Brave men indeed ///   9/25/2004 12:01:42 AM
Seawolfs are really no bigger than the VACL's or the LACL's. They can just go deeper. They are HY-100 hulls, whilst VACL's do with HY-80 hulls - littoral operations took precedence. And I have a feeling that HY-100 manufacturing and operational processes and experiences yielded some concern for long-term operability - just like the titanium-hulled Soviet princesses. These suckers have to dodge and turn and dive and climb and race and rest. Boomers just float. Hence their 40+ year life span. HEY! It's good to be a poster on the StrategyPage. I do some interesting work in this field, but everything that I post comes from public sources. Trust me - I have to be able to prove that. Peace. FX
 
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Factor X    RE:Dissimilar metals lead to rust   9/25/2004 12:07:20 AM
And... The trick is to put something between those alter-noble metals that is not conductive. Elementary, my dear Watson. No idiot would conductively join different metals in a conductive seawater environment and still be able to keep a job. Elememtary stuff. At least I hope so for the Brits. FX
 
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gf0012-aust    Best Submarines Brave men indeed ///   9/25/2004 12:09:32 AM
Factor, are you attending the UDT Conference in Hawaii in a few weeks time?
 
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Factor X    RE:Best Submarines///   9/25/2004 12:23:09 AM
gf0012-aust: No, I am not. In fact, I don't even know what that is. I've spent the last month of my life making sure Jimmy-25 can get 'wet'. Well, she's probably wet, but, EB promised her to the USN at the end of September, and it sure seems like they want to do it. Damn periscope mast fairings weren't quite right. 70-hour weeks for the composite-material suppliers! FX
 
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gf0012-aust    Best Submarines/// Fx   9/25/2004 12:29:44 AM
So you're a tech "white shirt"? ;) Link and overview for this years UDT link I'm off in a few weeks, so hopefully I'll get to see some of the friendlier locals. I've been warned that they are snobs though... hopefully that was just info from a bloke who was just unlucky with women....
 
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Factor X    RE:Best Submarines/// Fx   9/25/2004 12:57:14 AM
White shirt? Yes, perhaps, until I'm covered in urethane goo, or epoxy glop. What's your gig? Navy official? I work with NUWCCR (I think I got that right) a lot on accoustic stuff, and have to face up to Electric Boat on the composites side. I just put in two Hell weeks for Jimmy C.
 
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gf0012-aust    RE:Best Submarines/// Fx   9/25/2004 1:13:33 AM
I'm currently dealing with acoustics, signature reduction. so it's mainly sub or mine warfare solutions. although the tech has been used on some fast stealth skimmers aswell. It's a private company.
 
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