Indian SSBN Turns On Its Reactor

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Subject: Indian SSBN Turns On Its Reactor
SYSOP 8/13/2013 5:03:15 AM

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keffler 8/14/2013 11:58:05 PM

Explain to me, why your nation that cannot build a good television set, or a refrigerator or a decent car should not be considered as not quite capable of building a ballistic missile submarine at this time?

A nuclear submarine is the pinnacle of naval technology. One equipped with ballistic missiles is about the hardest exercise to accomplish.

As of this date only two nations have demonstrated they know how from the keel up to build and operate such systems independently and SAFELY. One is the United States. The other is not Russia. China, Britain, or India.

If that hurts your feelings... well facts don't care about feelings. It took the Americans almost twenty years to work the bugs out of their SLBM force. The French took as long in theirs. Russia still has problems and China is still a complete joke.

India will be there where the Americans are now by about 2040, but by then, the Indian SLBMs will be obsolete.

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Andrew S Agreed 8/15/2013 6:42:30 PM

My gripe with it is how a country with such rampant poverty can afford to acquire aircraft carriers and submarines..let alone build them. There is always the call from NGO's and the like to western nations to provide financial support for their poor, when their own country puts their collective resources into an arms spending spree as opposed to feeding and providing for their own people. Not against a country defending itself.. but to what cost ? Fail to look after your own and that creates an enemy within surely..?

India is not alone in such an adventure either.... suppose it has been the way of the world since way before our time.

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DeltaWing 8/19/2013 3:44:09 AM

India is not alone in such an adventure either.... suppose it has been the way of the world since way before our time.

Ah yes I'm familiar with this argument.

First off, let's talk about rampant poverty. A country suffering from rampant poverty isn't by necessity poor - in India's case the poverty can be credited more to the skewed wealth distribution and government corruption. So you don't need to wonder how we can afford them, because the country is actually quite rich.

Secondly, whether NGOs ask for aid or not, that has nothing to do with the government. The government spends a set amount of money on social measures and takes LOANS, not AID. Also, at the end of the day, aid is GIVEN, so if your governments felt so terrible about the whole thing, all they have to is stop giving aid. The amount of corruption within NGOs probably justifies that anyway.

Thirdly, India has more domestic insurgencies than any country I know, and this has been true almost since independence. The only militant movement linked to social conditions and poverty is the nasal movement. And since that has been hijacked by the Chinese and the communists it will be unlikely to have a peaceful resolution.

Finally, if you believe a nation that has poor people doesn't have the right to enhance its military capability, then you're being quite naive. India has many reasons to develop a strong military, and if you were aware of the tensions in Asia you would probably agree.

At the end of the day, our defence budget isn't that large, and more money is slated for infrastructure and social programs than for the military. So your assertion that we're on an arms spending spree is also not correct.

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DeltaWing 8/19/2013 3:46:40 AM

Just to be clear, I meant the Naxal movement, which my tablet decided to correct!

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DeltaWing 8/19/2013 3:52:16 AM

India will be there where the Americans are now by about 2040, but by then, the Indian SLBMs will be obsolete.

You're probably right, as much as it saddens me to say it.

However, having obsolete technology compared to the Americans isn't the worst thing, since India and the States are on good terms. And let's be honest, the only thing we in India would ever need to nuke are two neighbors that share our borders.

Our track record in building defense equipment is pretty terrible, but naval projects tend go better, so I'm a little more hopeful about this and the carrier than about the LCA.

I do have a perfectly good Indian TV and fridge though!

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Andrew S 8/20/2013 11:28:07 PM

G'day Delta

Perceptions can be a cruel thing. !

Even better to get info from someone there , so appreciate the input !

More of a case of India playing catch up..? Have to admit you are certainly in a rough neighbourhood..!

Pretty aware of Asian build up.. we just happen to be in more of the quieter corner of it and we too have started

our build up with LHD's , AWD's and the plans for our submarine replacements. Our neighbours to the north (Indonesia ) have also started out filling their shopping lists with ex-German armour.

Naive ..nahh.. every country needs a strong and sustainable defence force.. but I think some just go that bit too far !!

If only we could settle it all with a good cricket game..! ( Not right now though..we aint going that well ) ;-)

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DeltaWing Andrew 8/21/2013 8:51:28 PM

G'day Delta

Perceptions can be a cruel thing. !

Even better to get info from someone there , so appreciate the input !

More of a case of India playing catch up..? Have to admit you are certainly in a rough neighbourhood..!

Pretty aware of Asian build up.. we just happen to be in more of the quieter corner of it and we too have started

our build up with LHD's , AWD's and the plans for our submarine replacements. Our neighbours to the north (Indonesia ) have also started out filling their shopping lists with ex-German armour.

Naive ..nahh.. every country needs a strong and sustainable defence force.. but I think some just go that bit too far !!

If only we could settle it all with a good cricket game..! ( Not right now though..we aint going that well ) ;-)

Hello mate!

For what its worth, I understand your point of view, and apologise if I came across as rude in my earlier post.

Yeah in a way it is a case of India playing catch up. The generally held perception is that China is outpacing us in every respect as well as making sure they have us geopolitically 'surrounded' by countries they have military or economic contracts with. I have to say its a view I mostly agree with.

The bigger problem is that the Indian government refuses to address the root cause of the situation, which is their diplomatic slow mindedness and lack of pro-activeness. Instead, they believe that certain military platforms like SSBN's will be game changers, which they wont.

However, from a military point of view, I guess developing new platforms is better than whats happened before - which is corruption and bribery in defence acquisitions and a woeful record of keeping different platforms combat ready.

What's the Aussie view on Asia? You guys worried about Indonesia and North Korea? I'm glad to see Oz is replacing equipment and expanding its capabilities. Sometimes I worry that a lot of armed forces would go the way of the UK's.

Sometimes the tension in South Asia can be a little worrying, but if anything, most people believe India needs to sped more on defence, and not less!

Cricket sounds great :)

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Andrew S 8/25/2013 8:50:10 PM

Well g'day again..

The Aussie view on Asia..where does one start ? I think for so long we had always had the
worry of the peril of being swamped by Asia as the last bastion of the west
..or the feeling of not really being accepted by Asia and being the odd man out
of the group..as being perceived as not really being a part of Asia.

But I think that has changed since the natural disasters in the region (response to
tsunami), rise of Islamic terrorism and the need for trade that this perception
of Asia and our place in it has changed. The arming of Indonesia would have set
of alarm bells in the past, but that hasn't really happened this time. We seem
to be working more with Indonesia than before. Not to say we don't have
differences of opinion ( East Timor, Irian Jaya ) but we seem to be working
together more and appreciate the differences, agree to disagree but not let it
affect the relationship. After all they are the most populated Islamic nation
and Isamic radicals are just as much a threat to them (if not more so) than to
us.

North Korea is considered to be a dangerous basket case. While more of a threat to
South Korea , Japan and even China rather than here, it would hurt us more in
trade than militarily of a missile heading our way. They seem to be more
interested in drug running here ( the Pong Su drug ship of a few years back for
example).

The rise of China is the most perplexing of all. We seem to be more cautious in our
approach with our largest trading partner. There seems to be more willingness
of accomodation of a strong China, but the concern is that of are they going to
become the neighbourhood bully. Again South China Sea is a worry and as it is
a major trade route for us so a war sparking there would affect us. Australia
seems to be trying to be a mediator in all of this, even to the point of being
between the USA and China. We have included China in small scale joint
exercises and to the point of making it known that seeing China take part in a
large scale one in the future ( jointly with the USA) could well be possible.
Having the USA base 2500 Marines in the territory however was a message to
China I think, and an attempt to strike a balance. But for Australia trade
means peace. Encourage the trade and the risk of war could hurt so many more
and make it not worth the risk.

We are re-organising creating an amphibious capability and bigger airlift and also
going through a modernisation so largely replacing existing capability and building upon it. We are a much
smaller force, so we do try to use the technology to make up for that and to ensure we keep an edge against numerically superior numbers. We also have niche capabilities whether it be Special Forces, submarines or ELINT AP-3C as opposed to vast numbers of general forces., so we are looking at more networking and
interoperability between our own and allied forces. So certainly not going the
way of the UK and Europe.

Invasion of our borders isn't really the worry for us (long way to swim !! ) more
protecting our trade lines and supporting local neighbours either militarily or
in times of natural disaster is seen to be our priority, so we are building
towards that.

The general consensus in Australia is that we spend just enough on defence. I think
the issue for us hasn't been how much but how and what we spend it on. We had
a few big past projects go over or just plain wrong.. ( purchase of two old US
LPH's, the Seasprite helicopters ) or we take on projects that are totally new
or first of type (such as Wedgetail AEW, MRH-90's, KC-30's, Tigers and the
Collins class submarines) and pay the expense of having them tailored to suit.
Obtaining C17's and Super Hornets went well.. as these were off the shelf in
budget and in time equipment. Hopefully the same will happen with the new
Seahawk Romeos.

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