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Subject: good or bad plan?
5thGuards    3/15/2008 1:04:56 PM
SSGN are quite cunning submarines , I was wondering if any navy professional could explain how dangerous they exactly are for a CSG. Lets take 5 OscarII SSGN vs a USN CSG , if the 5 Oscar would fire volleys of shipwrecks at the Carrier could all this force potentialy overwhelm the strike group's defencive potential and letting some pass into the carrier and make huge dmg , or would the strike group be capable of protecting the carrier ? There are a lot of other tactics too sink the carrier more effectivly but im very interested in the OscarII scenario.
 
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dwightlooi       3/15/2008 2:38:03 PM
The problem with SSGNs in an anti-ship role (as opposed to tactical land attack using cruise missiles) is that the long range missiles like the 300~500km weapons the Russians have deployed are exceedingly difficult to target at their stand off ranges.

Say you want to hit a carrier group 400km away, before you can even think that you need to know EXACTLY where the group is. This is easier said than done.

(1) The Submarine's sonar and mast mounted radar can't find the target(s) at that range.
(2) Satellite recon is usually a couple of hours old by the time it gets to the fleet.
(3) Airbourne recon is about the same except that it can be intercepted and shot down.
(4) Because the launch platform is a submarine, getting the info to it is even more difficult -- black out periods, having to get the message through via VLF and have the sub come to periscope depth for a satcom link, etc.
(5) The submarine(s) are usually not exactly where they need to be to take the shot, so they frequently need to transit to a launch point.

Now, shooting on a 2 hour old positional fix really trashes the shot. At 30 knots, a carrier group can be in a 70km area from the last fix. The typical acquisition range of the missiles are going to be at best about 20km. So you can literally miss, or have to spread out the salvo and have only a minority fraction of the birds actually acquire targets.

This is all assuming that you have your sub at the right place at the right time when the intel comes in already luke warm. If you have to move the sub your chances plummets even more.

We haven't even talked about hostile SSNs on the prow in a 500~600km arc in front of the CSGs trying to kill your SSGNs and how effective they may or may not be.

The difficulty of targeting and employing long range AShMs -- even for the king of space assets the USA -- is why the Navy withdrew ALL the Tomahawk TASMs from submarine and ship platforms in the 90s. Basically, long range AShMs from slow moving, hard to talk to platforms usually unemployable 90% of the time.

 
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5thGuards       3/15/2008 5:11:06 PM

The problem with SSGNs in an anti-ship role (as opposed to tactical land attack using cruise missiles) is that the long range missiles like the 300~500km weapons the Russians have deployed are exceedingly difficult to target at their stand off ranges.

Say you want to hit a carrier group 400km away, before you can even think that you need to know EXACTLY where the group is. This is easier said than done.

(1) The Submarine's sonar and mast mounted radar can't find the target(s) at that range.
(2) Satellite recon is usually a couple of hours old by the time it gets to the fleet.
(3) Airbourne recon is about the same except that it can be intercepted and shot down.
(4) Because the launch platform is a submarine, getting the info to it is even more difficult -- black out periods, having to get the message through via VLF and have the sub come to periscope depth for a satcom link, etc.
(5) The submarine(s) are usually not exactly where they need to be to take the shot, so they frequently need to transit to a launch point.

Now, shooting on a 2 hour old positional fix really trashes the shot. At 30 knots, a carrier group can be in a 70km area from the last fix. The typical acquisition range of the missiles are going to be at best about 20km. So you can literally miss, or have to spread out the salvo and have only a minority fraction of the birds actually acquire targets.

This is all assuming that you have your sub at the right place at the right time when the intel comes in already luke warm. If you have to move the sub your chances plummets even more.

We haven't even talked about hostile SSNs on the prow in a 500~600km arc in front of the CSGs trying to kill your SSGNs and how effective they may or may not be.

The difficulty of targeting and employing long range AShMs -- even for the king of space assets the USA -- is why the Navy withdrew ALL the Tomahawk TASMs from submarine and ship platforms in the 90s. Basically, long range AShMs from slow moving, hard to talk to platforms usually unemployable 90% of the time.



Yeah I agree its very hard too first find position of carrier and then the carrier might have already went away , lets say  as a scenario ruskies send some bears over the atlantic and radio the csg position , now I belive it will be fairly hard too send the position too the oscars without getting detected , lets say they dont the oscars will get into position and fire their volley of shipwrecks from long range and now you have a volley of shipwrecks heading towards the carrier and the oscars can get away because the US navy doesn't have Vikings anymore and the hawks are pretty slow, unleas the Oscar closes in it can escape , and the volleys of shipwrecks fired at the carrier are now possing a serius threat , how will the US defence systems fair against them?

 
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