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Subject: combined submarine and surface vessel ?
murabit821    10/8/2007 7:03:11 PM
combined submarine and surface vessel to some kind of craft with small deep , closed hull, good speed, what is yours opinion on technical solutions, ability and military purpose ?
 
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RockyMTNClimber    You describe the classic German U-Boat   10/8/2007 7:08:51 PM

combined submarine and surface vessel to some kind of craft with small deep , closed hull, good speed,

what is yours opinion on technical solutions, ability and military purpose ?


The WWII U-Boat was a submersible attack platform during its most successful campaigns early in the conflict. It used its speed to manuver against a convoy and then retreat underwater if needed.
 
Radar made it obsolete.
 
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
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murabit821       10/8/2007 7:33:31 PM
hm i rather think abou some kind of surface vessel used diving as hidding tactics , waiting on enemy dive in litorial waters
 
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WarNerd       10/9/2007 3:01:56 AM

combined submarine and surface vessel to some kind of craft with small deep , closed hull, good speed,

what is yours opinion on technical solutions, ability and military purpose ?
see M class, X1, and Surcouf.
 
This idea comes up every couple of years, the basic problems with it are:
 
1.   Submerging to any significant depth requires a (potentially massive) reinforcing of the hull to prevent collapse.  This adds weight, which requires more buoyancy, which means a bigger ship.  This process can easily spiral several times.
 
2.   The only sensor system that is available full time to a submerged vessel are acoustic sensors.  This limits the roles the craft can engage in.  The shape of a vessel hull designed to spend most of it's time on the surface is sub-optimal for submerged service and acoustically noisy compared to a pure submarine design.
A submerged vessel cannot defend itself adequately against aircraft..
 
3.   Surface vessels and their equipment have numerous openings that have to be sealed for submerging.  Turrets are a particular problem, and new designs would have to be developed from scratch.  Even then, this could easily limit your maximum submergence depth to less than 200'.

4.   Limited submersion depth makes the vessel extremely vulnerable to all forms of ASW, while limiting the vessels ability to defend itself.
 
The conclusion is that you end up with a vessel that combines the problems of both worlds (surface and submerged) without accruing compensating advantages. 
 
Submarines need stealth, which includes a deep diving capability, to get close enough to attack, and then sustained speed to evade the counter attack that will follow.  However, if a submarine is spotted before it can attack it is extremely vulnerable and will almost always have to break off the attack and evade. 
 
Surface vessels are easier to detect, but have the ability (actually "the need") to use active defense systems to protect themselves. 
 
The way that surface and submerged vessels operate in combat and the roles that they play are just to different to effectively combine in a single vessel.
 
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murabit821       10/9/2007 5:55:04 AM
thanks thanks

hm and what about small vessel like size like swedish Smyge or Sea shadow , armed only with missiles ?

 
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Herald1234       10/10/2007 9:34:56 PM

thanks thanks

hm and what about small vessel like size like swedish Smyge or Sea shadow , armed only with missiles ?

Now you get into stability problems.

Herald

 
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Galrahn       10/10/2007 9:53:37 PM
Sounds a lot like the DDG-1000, where the Navy is trying to have a surface ship with the stealth of a submarine and the strike power of an aircraft carrier.



 
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