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Subject: Astute Launched
NotUkOnly    6/16/2007 9:30:21 AM
http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/server/show/ConWebDoc.9325
 
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dirtykraut       6/20/2007 12:17:53 PM
This is a fantastic sub that is the epitome and example of British ingenuity and innovation. But at 2.4 billion a sub, it is simply too expensive, and in my opinion a big mistake. The Royal Navy has ordered 4 Astute class submarines to be built. The per unit cost per sub alone represents a 3.5-4% of the entire UK military budget. When Parachute training has been discontinued or cut back, and the Scottish regiments are sharing kilts, it probably is not the most logical thing to do. I don't say this because of COIN warfare, and that western militaries don't need to innovate conventional capabilities (they do). But submarines have always been strictly a deterrant, and quite frankly, the day submarines such as this are no longer a deterrant is the day that we will have bigger problems to worry about.
 
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Jeff_F_F    Deterrent   6/21/2007 1:02:41 AM
If there is anything that the post cold war era has taught us it is that the surest way to avoid war is leaving no enemy an opening to attack. When it is clear that a successful attack is impossible then peace must be the only choice. The Chinese are building up their submarine strength. And it would be a lot better to have the capability now and not need it than to have to start a crash building program when it is already too late.
 
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Jeff_F_F    Deterrent   6/21/2007 1:04:30 AM
oops, I meant to say the cold war era, not the post cold war era.
 
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Ehran       6/22/2007 12:05:17 PM
dk the astutes probably will have 25 years lifespan which makes their effective cost 100 mil a year which is a much more reasonable bite of the defense budget.
 
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Yimmy       6/22/2007 1:44:48 PM
These boats are not limited to deterrent value.  They are deployable and usable weapons in todays and tomorrows conflicts.  The Royal Navies SSN's are arguably their best and most useful assets.  They can travel undetected anywhere in the world with a war load of I believe 38/40 weapons - which is potentially a lot of Tomahawks.

HMS Conqueror (a Dreadnought class SSN) sank the Belgrano in 1982.

 
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dirtykraut       6/22/2007 8:27:21 PM
It's 400 million a year for all 4 boats, and this doesn't include maintenance costs and what not. The Royal Navy will probably want to order more of them as well. It's highly unlikely that the Brits will be involved in a conventional war anytime soon that they will be able to use these. I don't see them going to war with the Chinese over Taiwan, for example, so it is very likely that it will remain a deterrant. On the other hand, better safer than sorry, and you have to pay for the best sub in the world. But I do believe an increase in the military budget for the UK. The only people who really want a budget increase is the military. The UK military is refusing to cut the fat out of the UK military budget, much like the US is currently doing. But my point was that if you talk to many in the British Army I am sure they are not too happy that the Navy is getting 2.4 billion dollar subs, while they are sharing kilts. I agree you have to make some sacrifices, but now is not the best time to do it for the UK military.
 
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VelocityVector       6/22/2007 8:36:31 PM

UK still holds far-flung territories.  Astute class with tomahawk can help assure retention and role on the global stage.  That's what UK is paying for, actually.

v^2

 
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Yimmy       6/22/2007 9:03:35 PM

 It's highly unlikely that the Brits will be involved in a conventional war anytime soon that they will be able to use these.

 But my point was that if you talk to many in the British Army I am sure they are not too happy that the Navy is getting 2.4 billion dollar subs, while they are sharing kilts.

I agree you have to make some sacrifices, but now is not the best time to do it for the UK military.


How do you figure that these submarines will not be usable in current conventional conflicts?  In recent years our Swiftsure and Trafalgar class boats have been used extensively to monitor sea lanes and fire Tomahawks.  Why can't the Astute boats do the same?  There aren't too many regions which are over 1000km's from water.

I also fail to see why the army should be upset that the Royal Navy are gaining these assets.  The current submarines can not stay in service forever, they have to be replaced, and as I have previously stated the SSN force is about the best thing going for the navy.  Who cares about sharing kilts?  Kilts are ceremonial kit and have little to do with anything for 360 days of the year.  Reducing parachute jumps for the para's is verging on being disturbing, but it doesn't quite cut it either.  The only way out of that is to buy more transport aircraft for the RAF, as our current fleet are needed elsewhere (and lets face it, it isn't complicated to jump out of an airplane).

Some sacrifices need to be made if we are to afford certain capabilities, I agree.  However the sacrifices should be ceremonial kilts, not fighting submarines. 
 
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dirtykraut       6/23/2007 12:33:02 AM
Don't get too worked up over the kilts, I just used that as an example. Not a good one I admit. But airlift capability is far more important for global power projection to protect UK interests around the world than Astute class submarines. It's nice that Astutes can launch Tomohawk missiles, but that is a job that destroyers do too well to pay for a 2.4 billion dollar sub with the same capabilites. And as far as I know the Trafalgar class could also fire tomohawk missiles. It would have been cheaper and more cost effective to just upgrade the Trafalgars. Anyways, you're British and I'm not. Sacrifices must be made, I believe that buying astute class submarines should not be high priority for the UK. You and most of the UK obviously have a different opinion on the matter. It's just something to think about next time squaddies start bitching about their kit. It's not like this problem is exclusive to the UK. While the US military is out buying Virginia Class subs and F-22's, we use scrap metal to armor our Humvees and some of our bases do not have enough toilet paper. (And I'm not joking about that either). These capabilities are important, no doubt, but when it gets people killed for the aforementioned reasons, I tend to be wary of 2.3 billion a piece Virginia Class subs. I've been unfortunate enough to witness that spending money in the wrong places can lead to people going home in a box. If you saw some of the hummers we drove around in Iraq you would agree. The only thing we can do is throw more money at the military. And discontinue research on star trek teleportations and the gay bomb might help as well.
 
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dirtykraut       6/23/2007 12:36:10 AM

UK still holds far-flung territories.  Astute class with tomahawk can help assure
retention and role on the global stage.  That's what UK is paying for, actually.


v^2

As amazing a machine as the Astute is, I doubt that 4 of them will really be of much consequence to the UK on the global stage.

 
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