Military History | How To Make War | Wars Around the World Rules of Use How to Behave on an Internet Forum
Submarines Discussion Board
   Return to Topic Page
Subject: The greatest secret of the COLD WAR: K-129 went ROGUE
HYPOCENTER    1/3/2007 8:15:58 PM
I'm almost through reading "RED STAR ROGUE: The Untold Story of a Soviet Submarine's Nuclear Strike Attempt on the U.S." and I must say, what i've read has chilled me to the bone. It's my first foray into the world of submarines during the cold war, I plan on reading Blind Mans Bluff next for added perspective... I agree with the authors freighting conclusions. The authors essentially put forth the hypothesis that at some point during her last mission, K-129 (soviet ballistic Golf II Class) went rogue and tried to launch her nuclear tipped ballistic missiles on a rogue attempt to attack Pearl Harbor and Hawaii. During the launch sequence, the fail safe activated destroying the warheads thus causing a chain of explosions that sank the sub. The circumstances surrounding the destruction and subsequent sinking of K-129 is probably the single greatest mystery in the history of nations. If nothing else, it's certainly the most intriguing incident of the entire cold war. -The strange circumstances in which K-129 left port -She left port month early ahead of schedule, while in the middle of repairs for no apparent reason (apparently a "standard" mission) -She left with 11 more crew than she needed. -The complete absence of any crew manifest at her home port detailing the crew on board, including the 11 extra. -The complete lack of knowledge by the Soviets about where their own sub sank... (they were looking hundreds of miles away from where she actually sank.) -Then theres the frightening evidence given by the wreckage -Project Jennifer -and finally, there's the strange silence on the part of both nations who have privately agreed never to discuss K-129. "Retired United States Navy Captain Peter Huchthausen, former naval attaché in Moscow, had a brief conversation in 1987 with Soviet admirals concerning К-129. Huchthausen states that Admiral Peter Navojtsev told him, "Captain, you are very young and inexperienced, but you will learn that there were some matters that both nations have agreed to not discuss, and one of these is the reasons we lost K-129." In 1995, when Huchthausen began work on a book about the Soviet underwater fleet, he interviewed Admiral Victor Dygalo, who stated that the true history of К-129 has not been revealed because of the informal agreement between the two countries' senior naval commands. The purpose of that secrecy, he alleged, is to stop any further research into the losses of USS Scorpion (SSN-589) and К-129. Huchthausen states that Dygalo told him to "overlook this matter, and hope that the time will come when the truth will be told to the families of the victims." Don't you think it's a bit strange how neither nation has spoken much about the sinking of K-129? What do you guys think caused K-129 to sink?
 
Quote    Reply

Show Only Poster Name and Title     Newest to Oldest
DarthAmerica    HYPOCENTER   1/3/2007 9:55:37 PM
Good interesting post. Thanks! I wouldn't even try to speculate of the actual causes of the loss of either boat because it would be just that. Speculation. The environment that Submarines operate in makes it really easy to hide or distort the truth. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that something happened very differently from the official stories. But again thats speculation. Maybe sometime in the 2040's we may learn of the truth but I'm not holding my breath.


DA
 
Quote    Reply

HYPOCENTER    Read it and let me know what you think   1/4/2007 7:42:56 PM
Based upon what we know, we can use rational to form educated conclusions. I highly suggest reading this book, it's fascinating.

The analysis and insight provided is exceptional. The evidence is so surprising it's overwhelming.

K-129 sank in 1968, at the height of the cold war. I'm dead-set convinced that several Stalinist-era die hards within the soviet union conjured up an insane plot (unbeknownst to the rest of the soviet leadership) to attack America in a surprise rogue attack (on Pear Harbor). The most frightning part of this book, isn't that the attack almost worked...rather, it was the ease with which the plotters were able to carry out such an operation; and no-one would have been the wiser, had it not been for the DIA and CIA investigation (we found the sub).

The amount of pure villainy it took for this small group of men, within the Soviet leadership, to do what it did-- is off the scale dangerous. The phrase, "Truth is stranger than fiction" has never had more meaning for me. Imagine the reaction of the DIA/CIA when they first came to the same inescapable conclusion in 1968.

The reasons why this incident was kept secret (on both sides), and how it shaped foreign policy towards the Soviets and Red China immediately afterwards is simply mind blowing.
 
Quote    Reply

gf0012-aust       1/5/2007 3:14:22 AM

And an alternative response follows: (email addresses changed)
The reasons why this incident was kept secret (on both sides), and how it shaped foreign policy towards the Soviets and Red China immediately afterwards is simply mind blowing.

Counterpoint

Subj: Scorpion
Date: 99-05-25 09:34:07 EDT
From: SSBN643@xxxx.com
To: bear317@xxxx.com

Hello,

I found your Scorpion page via a Yahoo search. http://members.aol.com/bear317d/scorpion.htm I find many of your conclusions to be in direct conflict with the known events of the time. Scorpion had completed the "high-tech spy mission" and was returning to Norfolk. Also you suggest that the Soviet Navy had the ability to " monitor an electronic transmissions to the Scorpion, including the encrypted orders sending it on its spy mission." 1. This is patently false. 2. If it were true, then the Soviets would have had a tremendous advantage during the cold war, which is not borne out by the results of same.

You also contend that the Soviet battle group which was shadowing had detected her, possibly followed her, and then attacked her with torpedoes. Nonsense. No Soviet captain would ever dare such a thing without orders from CNO Moscow. And such orders would have led to an escalation in the cold war that frankly never happened.

Your sequence of events for the Scorpion;s change of mission is also wrong. She was given the change at Naples before departing. This is a well documented fact. A point of note, the Captain and several of the officers attempted to get the Captain James Bradley to change the orders. They had been at sea for 2 months and wanted to get home. Bradley was sympathetic, but the orders stood. Did you even research any of this?

Next you say that the Soviets were conducting tests of possible acoustic systems and ways to replenish subs at sea without relying on foreign ports? What nonsense is that? There is plenty of documentation readily available to show what they were doing there. In fact, in one of Scorpion's last radio messages, she tells exactly what she observed and her analysis.

Your statements attributed to Lt. Jonh Rodgers are interesting. My only question is what would a mere Lt. be doing with classified information of that magnitude? And what would make him divulge it in an interview years later. Especially if that information had yet to be declassified? Your contention that he was a messenger in the COMMO center is flawed. All that information is encrypted. Then sealed before being handed to a messenger. If he read it, he broke the seal. If he handed it to his boss with a broken seal, he gave the interview from Leavenworth prison.

Now about the torpedo. 1. he previous incident with an "unarmed training torpedo" is just laughable. Why would a US Attack submarine, operating during the cold war, close to Soviet fleets, waste her valuable hull space with something like that?

What you refer to is called a "hot run" It happened frequently with the Mk37 torpedo. There was a problem with the wiring on the test equipment used. The most likely scenario is that there was a test on a torpedo being carried out. This is standard procedure for any US Submarine returning to base after a patrol.

The wires were probably reversed. This caused the fish to "hot run". At that point the Captain would instantly order 'Right full rudder". The reason is that every torpedo has a built in safety device that prevents it from turning and destroying the sub it was fired from. By turning right, and reversing course this device would have been activated and the warhead would not have armed.

This may explain why the wreckage of Scorpion was heading East when in fact her destination was West of her position. I really don't intend to find fault with your page. I do think the background music is a bit annoying. But it seems that you have drawn conclusions from some shakey sources. And I am not sure that you do any service to the families.

There was no cover up. There was no attack by a Soviet vessel. It was simply a case of terribly bad luck striking a boat with a history of bad luck and maintenance problems.

My best to you and yours,

    Sincerely, 
    SSBN643@xxxx.com

 
Quote    Reply

bubblehead38401    Thousands of Mark 37's-No reports of Hot Runners   5/21/2009 11:51:15 PM
The Scorpion was indeed sunk by the Russians.  I served in the US Naval Submarine service for eight years.  The Mark 37 was the most populus Fish in the Submarine force during the time the Scorpion went down.  The procedure used to shut down a "Hot Running" Mark 37 was to come about equal or greater than 120 degrees and the fish would shutdown, in the tube or in the torpedo room.  The Scorpion incident was the Soviets response to what they thought was the US Sinking of the Soviet K129.  In fact that was a Rouge boat.  I was also a Radioman and I know that what Walker sold to the Soviets were Key lists for the KL-47 Adonis encryption device.  Shortly after the Soviets got the Key lists from Walker, the USS Pueblo, a US Spy ship in international waters off the coast of North Korea was seized for the specific purpose of capturing the hardware of the KW-7.  At that point the Soviets had everything they needed to break all that traffic.  I was a Crypto Center, Message Center and Control Center Supervisor at Naval Radio Station (T) Cutler, Maine.  All Submarine broadcast message traffic for the Atlantic was transmitted from this station.  When the board of inquiry was formed to report on the Scorpion incident the board was explicitly told that sinking as a result of hostle action was "Unacceptable".  This was an agreement between the two superpowers to avoid an all out nuclear war.  Having served in Submarines this whole incident turns my stomach.  A true Submarine Sailor NEVER would betray a ship mate.  If you beleive the Hot Running Mark 37 story, you have your head in the sand.  While I am not a big fan of Nancy Polosi, I can tell you that the CIA is definately not above out and out lying. 
 
Quote    Reply

Herald12345    Silver Zimc batteries.   5/22/2009 1:34:05 AM
The Mark 37 did not have to hot run to detonate. It could simply have cooked off due to battery overheating as it sat in the tube. Electric torpedoes are dangerous..
 
Quote    Reply

semprof    http://www.oberf.org/ralph_j_wv.htm   3/4/2011 2:54:26 PM
For 38 years or so I wondered about a spiritual experience I had that may have been connected with the K-129 event.
It's described in a posting at . You might find this interesting.  JMR PhD
 
Quote    Reply

ruethan       3/4/2011 5:53:05 PM
A rapid influx of water?
 
Quote    Reply



 Latest
 News
 
 Most
 Read
 
 Most
 Commented
 Hot
 Topics