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Subject: Torpedoes without subs.
EW3    5/15/2005 1:11:15 PM
Just a thought, thinking of Taiwan or Egypt, but it would apply to other countries as well. What if you planted large torpedoes like the MK48 ADCAP on the sea bed, and connected them to shore for power and control. Put them a few miles off the coast, particularly around major ports. When under attack fire them, and use wire control to guide them to selected targets. If done properly the could blend into the sea floor. Sort of like the CAPTOR mine, but under shore control and bigger. Being off the coast, and having decent range you could take ships out 15+ miles from a coast. Further in, at the entrance of the harbor you could do the same thing but with smaller torpedoes (MK46?) Don't need tha range, and it could be used to block a harbor entrance. Opinions? Sure is cheaper than a billion dollar sub.
 
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AMTP10E    RE:Torpedoes without subs.   5/19/2005 7:14:55 AM
The big killer is the fact that there are certain maintenance tasks that has to be performed periodically on torpedos, otherwise they become U/S. If you've got them out there on sea floor then you've got to have a way of servicing them otherwise it's just a waste of time/money.
 
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gf0012-aust    DSM. AMTP10E    5/19/2005 7:51:15 AM
" If you've got them out there on sea floor then you've got to have a way of servicing them otherwise it's just a waste of time/money. " recovery is not a huge issue, we have the tech to do it remotely now - doing it on the QT is a bit harder, unless you're using AGI's as pretend fishing vessels. ;)
 
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Nichevo    RE:Torpedoes without subs. - USN   5/19/2005 11:57:30 PM
In the 60s there was a Project HYDRA that was an individual ICBM, encapsulated or waterproofed, that hid alone in the water, fired from in the water (or was it ejected?). If you could do that with an ICBM, you could do it with a field of networked waterproofed Hellfire types.
 
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EW3    RE:Torpedoes without subs. AMTP10E    5/20/2005 7:05:27 AM
Is it possible to automate some of these functions? In the computer field we used to have to do all kinds of preventive maintenance, but when I mention doing PM, the kids think I'm talking a monthly womans issue.
 
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AMTP10E    RE:Torpedoes without subs. AMTP10E    5/20/2005 7:13:53 AM
Is it possible to automate some of these functions? From what I've been told, there are some engine maintenance tasks which are too fiddly to automate and would require a human to do them.
 
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Lawman       5/29/2009 6:39:58 AM

Sorry to dredge up such an old thread, but since it is probably among the most interesting threads, I figured it was right to do so.

I am thinking in terms of Georgia, and the Black Sea environment, and the lack of suitable ways to defend themselves from Russia's superior fleet strength. It occurred to me that this sort of defensive strategy might make sense, especially if properly implemented. A suitable SOSUS type network of sensors, linked to small launch structures (AUVs might actually make sense, with the ability to simply swim out, sit for a few weeks at a time, then return for maintenance) would form part of this. This could be supplemented, however, by shore based defences, especially the Italian Otomat and Milas. The Otomat has excellent range, and a suitable salvo of them could be pretty lethal, even to well defended ships. The Milas, on the other hand, adds the ability to fire off a torpedo carrying missile, either for use against submarines, or possibly to add to the threat to surface ships (I'm not sure of the effectiveness of lightweight torpedoes against surface ships, but I suspect they could still do a lot of damage. 

Overall, the system could combine the sensor network discussed previously, with a sort of heavyweight version of CAPTOR (i.e. bigger, with an encapsulated Mk48 ADCAP or similar), and shore based missiles. Implementing this would be expensive, but it would make any naval action against Georgia a lot harder... They could probably use something along the lines of the Swedish Sea Dagger mini subs for laying the weapons, without needing to attract attention by using surface ships or aircraft. Best of all, it may be possible to use the underwater passive sensor network for targetting purposes, to allow shore based anti-ship missiles to fire without needing to have an aircraft providing targetting...

Thoughts?

 
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007Seoh    Torpedoes without subs?   6/1/2009 11:17:12 AM
If I would be the Navy Commander of PLA, I would probably flatten the coastal area before sending in the landing craft at Taiwan's beach. There will be no chance for any one to activate the land mine or sea mine. All human beings will be incinerated along the coaster line.
 
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gf0012-aust       6/8/2009 6:46:57 PM

Overall, the system could combine the sensor network discussed previously, with a sort of heavyweight version of CAPTOR (i.e. bigger, with an encapsulated Mk48 ADCAP or similar), and shore based missiles. Implementing this would be expensive, but it would make any naval action against Georgia a lot harder... They could probably use something along the lines of the Swedish Sea Dagger mini subs for laying the weapons, without needing to attract attention by using surface ships or aircraft. Best of all, it may be possible to use the underwater passive sensor network for targetting purposes, to allow shore based anti-ship missiles to fire without needing to have an aircraft providing targetting...

A su8bstantial amount of what you are proposing already exists.  It's also what lef to china acuiring commercial systems under the anti-terrorist exemptions for foreign equipment for the Beijing Olympics.

eg they imported scottish transducer technology for safe harbour detection systems under anti-terrorism caveats.  they've adapted that tech into military grade anti-swimmer and anti-intruder solutions.  transducers are also used in subs.

seabed launched torpedoes have also been "around"  for a while
sea bed arrays are also in existence and used for movement detection and monitoring.

its why the chinese are so twitchy about foreign ships in the taiwan straits and parst of the sth china sea - they've been happily seeding and hoovering whatever they can.

sea bed arrays can be used for above surface targetting and response systems (eg aircraft) but the tech is not robust or powerful enough (IMO)  to be useful in deep sea locations.  It's still more useful at greenwater roles than bluewater..

 
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french stratege       6/8/2009 7:31:25 PM
Captor mines are well known
Probably Iranians are attempting to do that as well.
 
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WarNerd       6/9/2009 12:16:39 PM

That is why I specified 300 ft deep (or more) to prevent human tampering. (Besides they have to find it first.) Also, unlike the CAPTOR system this would be connected to a shore facility for power and control purposes. (this could make it more vulnerable) So unlike the captor it is not on automatic fire based on acoustical signature. This would be fired based more on land based or ship based radars.
To protect against tampering, there are always tricks. Multiple lines from shore to the weapon, lines between weapons, and if all else fails, let go a pod to the surface to get satellite com, like our subs do. I'm sure there are others.

300 ft is beyond the range of recreational scuba, but within the limits of technical diving, and no problem at all for a saturation diver or a hard suit.  Needless to say, an ROV can be used at any depth you can deploy the weapon at.
 
The power and communication umbilical will be fairly large, probably over 4" in diameter depending on length and power requirements.  Concealing it as it from either divers or side scan sonar as it crosses the seabed will be very difficult, unless the body is soft and the sedimentation rate high.
 
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