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Final Historian RE:Koran___Mr. Kafir 10/22/2003 4:48:56 PM

I think what AK was saying is that parts of the Koran are more likely to be literal descriptions of actual events, rather than allegories, such as a 3000+ year old Genesis. And hating people based on their religion isn't racism, its bigotry. Racism is hating someone because of ethnicity. Hating Arabs, that is Racism. MOre to come, don't have time to respond now.

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Final Historian Ethnocentrism 10/22/2003 5:25:34 PM

Ahh, the wonderful thing that is moral relativism. Which says that it is ok for other cultures to beat their women, rape young girls, and kill Jews to their heart's content, and that it is not ok to have corporal punishment, as it is "too cruel." Ethnocentrism is nothing more than a whitewashing of all the ugly and evil aspects of human behavior. By saying that no culture is better than any other, or that you can't critique the culture of others, you effectively legitimize Nasism, Communism, Imperialism, the Inquisition, and of course, Islamofacism. After all, who are you to judge that the Nazis were wrong? Were you a 1930's era German who wasn't Jewish? If not, how can you claim that the Germans were wrong, much less evil? After all, that was their culture of the time, and it would be ethnocentric to say theirs was inferior or wrong. I could go on, but I think the point is made.

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swhitebull RE:Ethnocentrism 10/22/2003 6:47:41 PM

..I could go on, but I think the point is made. ... But not taken. FH, we are dealing with another moral relativist. Notice how he doesnt address any of the points of the gaffney or the Memri articles on the merits, except to claim they are racist and that the articles incite hatred? Specious reasoning at best, reverse racism at best. And my feeling is that there should be MORE of these articles printed here, not less. So I, and others, will continue posting as I have, and I dare people of his ilk to find anything wrong on the merits, since it comes from the Islamic writings themselves. I think that he finds the articles hateful and racist NOT because of their content, but because they dare to expose the truth that is Islamic lawa and practice. Fair game in my book. If we are to compbat the terrorism that comes from Islamic radicalism, and if the writings of the Quran supports it- it is not only our right, but our moral obligation and duty to point out the foibles, inaccuracies, and warts of this young religion that forced converts at the penalty of death when it expanded out of the deserts. The readers of this board have a right to know these facts. If he doesnt like it, too damn bad - let him complain to the SysOps. My gut feeling is that it will get him nowhere. swhitebull

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American Kafir RE:Koran___Mr. Kafir 10/22/2003 8:18:59 PM

>> I'm not so sure that Prophet Muhammad, after killing the Jews at Khaibar and taking Safiya Bint Huyai as his "wife" while still drenched with her husband's blood, whispered in her ear, "Lighten up, baby. I'm just making an allegory."<< "You're not seriously using thousand-year-old stories & myths to justify anything, right?" Justify what? My contempt for a belief system that was laid down by a serial raping child molesting mass murdering ignorage savage barbarian thug with delusions of recieving an epiphany from the moon? Nah. I'm far more subtle than that. It's enough for me to percieve something inherently wrong with the idea of a man, Prophet or not, slaughtering the men of a village and taking the women as slaves and concubines, or even sicker, as "wifes." I just can't get my head around the audacity of Muhammad, still soaked with the blood of the slaughter of the men of Kaibar, trading one of his captive slave girls to one of his soldiers who captured Safiya, because she was the best looking chick among the survivors of the massacre. This is the actual recorded history of Muhammad's "courtship" to Safiya after the battle of Kaibar, as told in the Hadiths. It's pretty sick sh*t, not because it's Muslim or Islamic, but because it's sick sh*t. "My goodness. If that is the case, let us speak of the various christian inquisitions." Which would accomplish what? Competing lists of barbaric behavior? Two wrongs make a right? Certainly you wouldn't use historical instances of Christian atrocities to justify the existence of unrelated Islamic atrocities, right?

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swhitebull Arab massacres 10/22/2003 9:16:19 PM

..In terms of present day atrocities, say, in the last 100 years, who has killed more people? It wasn't the Arabs who killed Jews so mercilessly.. Oh, you want to talk of modern day massacres. Let's start: In order: These were posted in response to a poster who accused the Israelis of massacring 1000s of Palestinians. link the relevant points: We start with those fun-loving Syrians: Now lets talk about some other massacres, shall we? Gotta love the massacre of Syrians by Syrians in Hama? From the Syrian Human Rights Committee: ?Although seventeen years [written in 1999 ? that would make this 1982, right?] have elapsed since the massacre perpetrated on Hama- a town lay in the heart of Syria with population amounts to 350000 inhabitants- it is still considered the most ruthless campaign, during which the government of president Asad employed the regular army, forces especially trained and units of secret security services to crush and root out the Syrian opposition. For 27 days starting from February 2nd 1982, the Syrian forces put Hama under a siege, shelled the town with all kinds of artillery, then Hama was ravaged by military and special forces, and its civilians were severely punished. The estimated victims range between 30000 and 40000 civilians including ladies, children and elderlies. 15000 civilians were considered lost since then and had never traced back. Thousands of civilians were obliged to desert the town, as one third of Hama had been completely destroyed. Many mosques, churches and historical buildings were left in rubbles as a consequence to the government?s artillery bombardment. Foreign press reports said that the Syrian government had given the military forces full authority to finish the opposition and to punish all sympathisers. To avoid any popular protests or world condemnation, hushing up on Hama was imposed, all transport and communication links with the town were suspended. An embargo to the entry and parting was imposed on the town. During that period, Hama was a target to military operations on a large scale. Units of the army, special forces, defence brigades, military intelligence, general intelligence and militia of the ruling Ba?ath party took part in the operations against Hama. The campaign was led by the president?s younger brother brigadier Rifa?at Asad who was appointed two months earlier the martial ruler of the northern and middle districts of the country. An estimated number of 12000 especially trained soldiers were put under his authorities.? So what was that number of victims again? ESTIMATED AT 30-40,000!!! At their worst, the Christian Phalange killed FAR less in the entire time of the civil war, than the Syrians did over several days. And the Israelis are PIKERS compared to this. And the rest: ...Let?s discuss ALL of the massacres that Arabs have perpetrated on non-Muslims, or other Arabs [in this century] Lets start in the 1920s, for a good reference point. I?ll let you do that one. [in reference to ALL of the massacres of Jews in the British Mandate from the 1920s thru the 1940s].. ..I?ll just mention several, just for your greater edification and education. But as a reference, and Ive written about this before, lets start with: Iraqi Arab massacres of Kurds- oh, about 20-30,000. POISON GAS USED. WHERE WAS THE EUROPEAN PROTEST AND CONDEMNATION? Iraqi massacre of Shiites - oh , upwards of 75,000 murdered. WHERE WAS THE EUROPEAN PROTEST AND CONDEMNATION? Iraqi slaughter of Iranians POWs- at LEAST 15,000 confirmed. Not to mention the Iraqi use of poison gas (100,000+ dead Iranians). WHERE WAS THE EUROPEAN PROTEST AND CONDEMNATION? link So the IDF goes into Jenin to wipe out terrorists using the refugee camp, IN VIOLATION OF the Geneva Convention Protocols, to launch attacks on Israeli citizens. How many PALIS were killed of military age? HOW MANY PALIS IN TOTO WERE KILLED IN JENIN? 52 ? but THIS is WHERE THE EUROPEANS CHOOSE TO PROTEST AND CONDEMN the action of the Israelis. IT?S THOSE BLOODTHIRSTY JEWS at it again. How DARE they protect themselves! Now lets do the math: Arabs killing Arabs, or Kafir massacred since the 1950s - I come up with more than 1,500,000 Arabs and non Arabs MASSACRED by ARABS. Now how many Arabs - lets actually include Arabs of military age that were actually MASSACRED In cold blood by the IDF- did you say were killed? Please do the math again. What? i cant hear you! Did you say 52? 1,500,000 vs 52? OUCH!! Sure sounds like EUROTRASH selective use of CONDEMNATION - OR CONDONING - massacres, doesn?t it? Sudanese Muslims slaughter of non- Muslims in the Sudan ? upwards of 500,000~!! That?s right, 500,000. WHERE WAS THE EUROPEAN PROTEST AND CONDEMNATION? Egyptian gassing of Yemeni - 1963-1967 (Egypt, Yemen) Egypt employs chemical weapo

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swhitebull NOBODY expects the spanish inquistion 10/22/2003 9:21:03 PM

.. I wonder what Guantanamo torture techniques are like. .. All reports are saying that we are torturing these scumbags by feeding them WAY too much. The average terrorist here has gained weight during their stay swhitebull - next, get the comfy pilow

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swhitebull When radical Islam gains a foothold, stonings, amputations, and religious executions follow. 10/22/2003 9:34:14 PM

I repeat again from the Terrorism board, since it needs to be exposed: When radical Islam gains a foothold, stonings, amputations, and religious executions follow. this is an FYI article from national review, discussing the affect of Radical Islam on the vitality of nations and peoples. This is the case of the Nigerian woman who was raped, gave birth to a daughter more htan nine months after her husband divorced her, and was going to be stoned to death after the child is weaned until the clerics weaseled out of their original rulings because of the world uproar - VERY typical of what happens when Shariya gains a foothold in a culture or country, and is not fought VIGOROUSLY: link swhitebull- i only hope that by the time my kids are adults, this scourge will have been eliminated from the the world

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swhitebull And again- a Symposium of Muslim persecution of Christians 10/22/2003 9:58:47 PM

From frontpagemag.com: link swhitebull - more exposure of this religion to the light of day

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swhitebull RE:Mr. Swhitebull 10/23/2003 4:05:38 AM

ccooke- you missed the point of the thread- th e article in question addresses the tenets of a religion that advocates wife beating, not a societal problem in the us and other countries as your article addresses. BIG difference, when it is coming and permitted from the top down as religious institutional policy, instead of from the bottom up, as part of societal stress, mental problems, etc. THAT what the point of MY article. swhitebull

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swhitebull RE:Mr. Swhitebull 10/23/2003 4:50:23 AM

CS wrote: ..I enjoy reading your arguments. As amazingly flawed as they are, they also serve a great purpose: the demonstration of the dangerous and ignorant musings of (pro-war, anit-Arab) Americans.. Nice deflection when you: a) haven?t pointed out anything of my article or argument that is flawed in their arguments or point; b) haven?t illustrate how these are "ignorant" musings when the words are from Islams own Quran, merely whined about how these are old writings and therefore don?t matter (despite the fact that millions of adherents cite these ?old writings? as justification for their present day practices; c) have NOT in any of your retorts addressed any of my questions that I have asked you, but have tried to lamely switch to other topics, or accuse my postings of hatred and bias; d) have shown how bankrupt your comments are when you are unable to refute any of the points I have made except to divert and switch to other lamely written topics; and e) ask the following question:?? ?In terms of present day atrocities, say, in the last 100 years, who has killed more people? It wasn't the Arabs who killed Jews so mercilessly. It wasn't Arabs who enslaved Africans, trading them as people do Pokemon cards now. White South Africa. Hiroshima. You know I could go on and on.??, and then, when you don?t like the answer, weakly dismiss it: And when I provide you with direct analysis of who perpetrated massacres against non-Arabs and arabs alike, in my detailed analysis of Arabs killing Arabs, you then, since you don?t like the answer, cavalierly dismiss the answer to: [swhitebull has] been relegated to talking about Syrians killing Syrians, etc. You make it seem like civil wars are new. You must hav a problem with the English language, sice a direct answer to a direct question is EXACTLY what I gave you ? how is that being relegated to anything other than to answering you directly? That, my troll, is specious, bankrupt logic on your part, worse than any junior-high school debate team would be allowed, and just shows your lack of cognitive abilities or just knowledge that you have been shown to be a troll. You also asked, and was answered directly in my several posts, ??Who, indeed, is the most violent group, present day, of course, now that we're all supposed to be 'civilized' in the west.. The obvious answer is ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALISM, and the intolerance of the Islamic religion for other religions or ethnic groups in their midst. As a percentage of all practioners, how many Christians and Jews are allowed to live in, or practice on equal terms, their own religions, in Arab or Islamic lands? Now, I ask you again: what did you mean when you asked the following: ?Bombing muslim women... is that violence?.. how did I pass myself as an Islamic scholar? How did I incite hatred by citing an article that quotes the prophet mohammed?s own religious text? ? It wasn't Arabs who enslaved Africans? Another blatant, uninformed comment on your part, again showing you total ignorance of history- the Arab slave traders on the east coast of Africa were INSTRUMENTAL in running and organizing the slave trade in Africans. Their expeditions ran up and down the eastern coasts, and penetrated far inland, to trade for goods and services with the Portuguese at first, and later the Spanish and English. On the west coast and northern parts of Africa, ISLAMIC slave traders were also proficient in trading with black African tribes to promulgate the slave trade with the Europeans in the 1500 and 1600s. PRIOR to that, I guess you haven?t heard of the burgeoning slave markets in Islamic subsahran Africa, have you? You also blather: ?..Please point out what inflammatory language you are referring to. I never mentioned religion at all, and was simply describing the actions of a government. I would appreciate some clarification. Thank you? I had made the comment: ?given the hatful and racist comments you made on the Israeli board with your inflammatory use of language, I wouldnt be casting the first stones here..?, to which you replied: .. Please point out what inflammatory language you are referring to. I never mentioned religion at all, and was simply describing the actions of a government. I would appreciate some clarification. Thank you?. First, I never said that you mentioned religion as part of your comments, that was YOUR poor reading Second, you make the moral equivalence between Israeli civilians being deliberately being targeted with a palestinian civilian living among terrorists and being killed is highly abhorrent, inflammatory and offensive. That you fail to see the difference in the actions between a govt trying to minimize civilian casualties as it tries to protect its citizens from terrorist attacks, versus a) terrorist groups deliberately trying to kill as many Jews as possible, while kidding behind the skirts of women and children in contravention

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