Friend or Foe?

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Pakistani RE:Friend or Foe? FOE 100% a foe of all 1/19/2002 5:49:02 AM

"Perhaps this is a blind spot of mine but I am amazed that any sect/branch/cult can have such a defining power on one's views. Irrespective of the specifics of God views-this is almost the inverse of the problem. The void that is being filled by religeon seems to be a political-economic one." I dont disagree... the problem IS LACK OF DEMOCRACY! (Funny that a supporter of Mushraff would say that but that man is exptional). The world must put pressure on or force deomcracy in Saudia arabia. Oh and wahabbis have influnce because they ahve $$$ and they fund lots of Mardarsaas. Too bad Mushraff has said sources of Funds must now be delcared and forigen donations are blocked :)

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Pakistani RE:To Robert- If you want enlightenment on Islam 1/19/2002 5:52:22 AM

jeff said "One point I would make is that for a muslim they reject the notion of the separation of church and state. They are holistic in their religious application. By and large most muslims are easygoing observants. External factors drive some to fanaticism including governments using them as proxies first on Israel then the U.S." Well actually in Islam there is a clear seperation of Mosque and State in the QURAN ITS SELF. Its only because of the Ottoman empire that people cant sepearte the two any more. Well I am very VERY proud to say that Pakistan will no longer be a theocratic state after the historic addrses by the presidnet on Jan 12th basicly saying that Religon and Politics are two seperate worlds... one should not rule the other. He has not however banned political religous parties because that would be a suppression of their freedom of speech , but he clearly said that Theocracy must end.

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bsl RE:Friend or Foe? FOE 100% a foe of all 1/19/2002 9:48:55 PM

Pakistani, "I think that an uprising could do the job but the problem is what kind of elemets will get their hands on the throne after the dust settles?" I believe you've identified one of, if not the, most important caveat which has been behind American policy in the entire Middle East, Gulf, and Central Asian areas for a generation. I think this line of thought has heavily influenced American policy with respect to the PLO and Iraq, for instance. I've never had a high measure of respect for these lines of analysis, as applied to these areas because I think that they have tended to be used as excuses to avoid grasping bad, long range problems. Still, I do think they've been active considerations. The thing to keep in mind, though, is that this sort of prescription is, essentially, a negative. It's not a policy so much as a reason not to have a policy. A reason not to do what you would otherwise do. The implication of this is that there is a point where the perceived risk of doing nothing is overwhelmed by the perception that something MUST be done. For instance, after the events of 9-11, the previous very fine calculations about risk were swept off the table by a spontaneous decision that it was time to act. IOW, this sort of policy bar is liable to discontinuous removal. One moment, people think that they understand how things work, and how the United States will act - based on the perception that America feels that the problem they know is better than the problem they don't know - then, all of a sudden, a threshhold is crossed and the rules of the game change, seemingly with no warning. I think this analysis goes some way to explain how Saddam Hussein screwed up so badly when he misunderstood how America would react to his invasion of Kuwait. bsl

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bsl RE:Friend or Foe? FOE 100% a foe of all 1/19/2002 9:55:35 PM

" the problem IS LACK OF DEMOCRACY!" I think this is PART of the problem, but only a part. It's not ONLY a matter of a lack of democracy, in the narrow sense of the specific form of government. It's a matter of a whole range of cultural, social and economic forms which include democratic government, but also include much more. Freedom of contract. Relatively efficient, honest legal system. A norm of peaceful resolution of disputes. A cultural willingness to compromise as a norm, rather than seeing life as an all or nothing contest. Notably, some effective measure of limitation of religion to less than the total sphere of public and private life. Indeed, the very notion of a separation between public and private spheres of life. And, so on. Without these larger matters, simply adopting democratic forms is no guarentee of civilizing a nation. After all, the Soviets had what many political scientists considered to be a model constitution. They just never took it seriously. Similarly, the British left most of their colonies with very reasonable forms of democratic government. In almost every case - especially in Africa and the Islamic world - the local nations, lacking these other norms I've mentioned, made mockeries of the heritage gifted them by the British and sank into squalid petty dictartorships. I don't mean to suggest that you're wrong to identify democracy as a significant factor. I do mean to suggest that you have to cast your net somewhat wider.

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Pakistani RE:Friend or Foe? FOE 100% a foe of all 1/20/2002 4:53:26 AM

"I've never had a high measure of respect for these lines of analysis, as applied to these areas because I think that they have tended to be used as excuses to avoid grasping bad, long range problems" Like giving democracy a chance perhaps?

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pakistani RE:Friend or Foe? FOE 100% a foe of all 1/20/2002 7:29:58 AM

"It's not ONLY a matter of a lack of democracy, in the narrow sense of the specific form of government. It's a matter of a whole range of cultural, social and economic forms" All essintally related to freedom.... hence democracy is very important. But i do see your point.

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thirdworldheaven RE:Friend or Foe? 4/10/2002 9:30:31 AM

The Saudis aren't are friends. Anyone with a brain knows that. They like us only because we provide them with a market for their oil, directly or indirectly, and save their pathetic asses when their aggressive neighbors get military hard-ons. We mush see the Saudis for what they are: two-faced, terror-inciting, desert rats. They will pay a price. If that means going into Qassim and destroying whole mullah populations, so be it.

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madhukar RE:To Pakistani - good point 4/28/2002 3:34:43 PM

hi pakistani - haven't posted for a while. seen everyone's righteous anger against wahhabism, and it's interventions around the world. but other islamic schools of thought are hardly innocents manipulated by wahabism. the deobandis, who dominate islam in the subcontinent, aren't a far cry from wahabism in terms of fanaticism.

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jastayme3 RE:Friend or Foe? 12/31/2004 2:21:37 AM

Both. Tricky fellows they.

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A Patriot RE:Friend or Foe? 2/17/2005 4:11:04 PM

I agree they are both. There needs to be a change in the education system. I know people from S.A, I have a neighbour that is doing his neurology/neurosurgery training here in london (Ontario). Very smart guy. I have had chances to talk to him about Saudi Arabia. He has said the gernral population he grew up with liked Americans... He said they used to pretend to be American "army men" with his friends because they all though the U.S was "cool". He told me his father was an intelligents officer for the Saudi army, so he frequently got to go on trips to the U.S. He said he couldn't believe the freedoms he enjoyed in America, people could only dream about this in Saudi Arabia! Anyway, he believes the royal family is to blame for the way things are. They do not exersice their power enough, they let the muttawas (Religious police) have to much power and influence in the society. He believes the problem cannot be fixed for atleast 2 generations, because the Parents are already brainwashed and the children will follow in their footsteps, but perhaps the 2nd generation will fix things if somting is done to minimize the power of the muttawas. Lastly, Some of the things i've seen typed here really p**** me off, Even more so when most of the people writting this stuff have NO idea what they're talking about and have no background experiance. Soaking up the media bias like sponges. It's like watching an episode of COPs, everyone that gets busted on that show is black. It's annoying!

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