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Subject: US Army considering renewed production of 105mm M119
doggtag    8/6/2004 5:34:58 PM
Over at Jane's Defence Weekly,
link
there is an August 3 post:
"The US Army is planning to re-introduce production of the M119A1 105mm towed howitzer, the US variant of the BAE Systems RO Defence 105mm Light Gun, to meet a shortfall of 105mm artillery that will result from the Army's reorganization, service officials said. The Army is looking for 275 new howitzers: 111 for active duty units and 164 for reserve components." (full article is avaliable to subscribers)

Comparing the 105mm M119A1 howitzer,
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to the 120mm M120 mortar,
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What are the advantages the howitzer has over the mortar?

From what I see, the howitzer's RAP can reach 19km, whereas the mortar in US service does not yet have such an extended range projectile, limiting the mortar to just over 7km, roughly half the range of the M119A1 howitzer.
Also, the 120mm NATO-standard mortars have PGMs available (such as Strix, Bussard, and a few others), whereas the 105mm howitzers in US service do not yet have any PGMs (the 105mm STAFF round is not configured as separate-loading ammo for the howitzer, but could be implemented). Russian tube-launched missiles, by varying the propellant charge device, can be fired from 100mm guns (the 9M117 "Stabber"), including both the 2A70 of the BMP-3 and various Russian-built towed guns. Incorporating something like STAFF into the howitzer package could afford a self-defense weapon or an additional PGM for point targets. Even a new generation of PGM rounds developed for 105mm systems could present a defense contractor with another market to exploit, as several nations still employ 105mm artillery.

The US does utilize a self-propelled version of the 120mm mortar, the M121 (in the M1064A3 vehicle). But to date, no self-propelled 105mm systems are in US service, although UDLP is testing various concepts that may prove favorable to US requirements.

It is interesting that several NATO armies do still use towed 105mm guns/howitzers, yet very few still use 105mm SP systems. These countries do, however, utilize both SP and towed 155mm guns, and towed and SP 120mm mortars.
Perhaps, with the desire to field more 105mm fire-support weapons, the US may yet consider some form of 105mm SP system. There were conceptual studies for a 105mm LEO-based system incorporated into the Stryker 8x8 chassis (as is UDLP's V2C2 weapon mentioned in another thread) and perhaps an option for the FCS NLOS-C (which currently seems to be favoring a 155mm/L38 weapon).

Looking at the most cost-effective platform to develop an efficient SP mount for the US 105, (and this is entirely speculative), the LAV-25/Stryker 8x8 chassis and the stretched M113/MTVL hull are the two most favorable platforms in US inventory (or most readily acquired). Even reconditioning the older M113s (5 road wheels per side instead of the MTVL's 6) into the RISE standard with a slightly cut-down rear hull and incorporating a turreted 105, to vaguely resemble the 122mm 2S1 Gvozdika or the Abbot 105mm SP gun, would afford a shell-fragment/small arms proof artillery mount. This platform would easily fall under the US's stringent 20-ton weight limit for air-deployability. A four man crew would be sufficient for the relatively cramped M113 and Stryker hulls (considering a 105mm howitzer turret has just been installed). An autoloader would not be necessary for the 30-40lb 105mm shells.
Modifications to some of the turreted 120mm direct-fire-capable mortars might allow the turret to swap out one weapon for another (as an example, the Russian 120mm 2S31 Vena self-propelled system can function as both artillery or mortar, depending on the propellant charge used: higher pressures for longer-ranged artillery modes). These under-20-ton hulls would have no problem handling the recoil of a 105mm howitzer.

To go the more expensive route, there would be no reason a newer, longer ranged 105mm artillery piece could not be re-introduced into the M109-series hulls (the M108 was indeed the same hull, but mounting a 105mm weapon, and a considerably larger amount of 105mm shells). Such a system most likely will not see US service, though.

There is also the RDM MOBAT, a 105mm/L33 ordnance mounted on a firing platform at the back of a 4x4 cargo truck: such a concept would fit the US 4x4 FMTV ideally, with minimal expense to implement as opposed to developing a fully enclosed armored SP system. Affording the M119A1 such a mobile capability could prove ideal. Perhaps even a light-capacity knuckleboom gantry/crane could afford the option to remove the gun from the vehicle and place it onto its ground-based chassis/firing platform? The pedestal on the cargo truck could be configured for rapid removal, so the truck would be available as a standard cargo variant if the need arose (such as for re-supplying its own ammo). The overall benefit being that the gun need not be removed for firing, and could get in and out of action faster (the only requirement being a stabilization/jacking system for the truck).

Under typical exercises, the M119s already in service were towed by Humvees, and occassionally by duece-and-a-halfs (which could haul more ammo and crew supplies).

Any other thoughts?.
 
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doggtag    RE:105mm M119 & prime movers, Hybrid   8/24/2004 11:02:48 PM
A 105mm howitzer firing 30-40 pound shells at low-to-medium velocities has no where near the muzzle energy of a 127mm naval gun firing 70-odd pound shells at higher pressures and velocities. Try a little more math, you'll see. It's not like I'm proposing the US make a knock-off Caeser on a 6x6 FMTV with the XM777 UltraLightweight 155mm howitzer or anything... Actually, a 105mm howitzer would probably only generate marginally stronger recoil forces than a 120mm mortar firing at full charge (the difference being, most mortars funnel ALL the recoil down into the mounting, unless it has one of the newer recoiling mechanism, which the 105mm already has, to absorb some of the recoil in lateral movement.) When designing tank guns, there is a "power curve", which determines, for a given gun, how the recoil stroke can be varied depending on the requirements of the hull. In example, the Rh 105mm gun family comes in several variants with different recoil lenghts, depending on the weight/strength of the hull/turret it's mounted with to absorb the recoil stresses: Rh 105-60, wt 1320kg, recoils @ 600kN over 280mm distance, but the Rh 105-11 weighs in at 1380kg, with a 110kN recoil stress @ a recoil distance of 925mm. So varying the recoil length allows the gun to be fired from different chassis: a longer recoil stroke allows mounting on a lighter platform, because the gun itself is running out its own recoil stresses more, as opposed to a shorter-recoiling ordnance like in an MBT, which has sufficient weight and strength to absorb the heavier stress of a shorter recoil blow. The same principle is used in artillery, also: watch an M109 series SP gun fire: the gun recoils a considerable length as opposed to an Abrams tank, because the lighter hull of the Paladin must "draw out" the recoil in a longer run to handle it. So technically, there's little reason a truck-mounted system won't work: that's the idea behind SP gun trucks like Caeser and MOBAT: they have a longer recoil stroke to more easily handle the guns firing the same ammo as tracked (and considerably heavier) SP guns..
 
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wagner95696    RE:105mm M119 & prime movers   8/24/2004 11:25:14 PM
Trucks should level automatically. Civilian RV's have been doing so for at least 20 years.
 
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doggtag    truck stabilization.   8/25/2004 10:28:33 AM
I agree, wagner. Most modern construction cranes on 4 wheel chassis have built-in leveling systems to stabilize the lifting platform to a "zero profile" to maximize lifting safety. Actually, the current level of computer control/support technologies being built into the current field of heavy equipment needs to be seen to believed. Certainly, a computerized (with manual back-up) stabilization system can be incorporated into military wheeled firing platforms. Besides, that's really only one more small task for the computers of an FMTV to handle (the intergrated Driver 3000 and its variants provides an interactive troubleshooting electronic tech manual, as well as future connectability to the "battlefield Internet" the Army is pursuing. A Future Feasibility Study when the Crusader SPG was still in the works was a concept of "automated fire support element": with the level of automation in the Crusader (and could be intergrated into future artillery systems), it was suggested that a single Fire Direction Control contigent (at one time, a "platoon" was drwan up to include 4 guns, 2 ammo resuppliers, an FDC center, and 12-15 crew altogether), which basically was the Nintendo of artillery systems: a skeleton crew to drive and maintain gun ops, but basically, the guns, being automated, little more than received input from the FDC on target bearing. Then the automatic systems in the guns, in full "robot mode", carried out the fire mission. It was one more concept under investigation for the Army After Next ideas, and certainly has potential to be further integrated. The MLRS, and to a point, HIMARS, also offers the ability that the crews never leave the vehicle for a fire mission. And future US SP guns are pursuing the 3-, or even 2-, man crewed platform, where the gun system is fully automated, the crew sitting in the forward hull and computer controlling the entire engagement. Fitting out a truck with a magazine, like on the Swedish Bandkanon 1A 155mm gun, could afford a lightweight "shoot n scoot" platform, fitted out with a 105mm weapon and 12-20 round clip, which would need less ammo storage space than a full-up, tracked, turreted SP gun. All that would be needed would be a reloading system similar to the "clip" of rockets for the MLRS and HIMARS systems. A wheeled platform could be assembled/integrated a lot easier than some of you might think..
 
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AlbanyRifles    I am still trying to understand why?   8/25/2004 1:58:32 PM
Where is the advantage....I have read all you have written and I am still left with I would rather have the gun in position with the truck as a prime mover. I can sling load HMMWV and M119A1; can't do it once I put it on an LMTV. If the truck goes down in a truck mounted system, the entire weapon system is deadlined and reportable....if the prime mover goes down for a towed piece, I can always grab another which can pull. And how tall do you want to make this truck? Where does the crew go? 4 of the 7 guys on the crew are managing ammo. Where do they go on a truck mount system? Oh, and one other thing, a pedastal mount M119A1 can fire 360 degrees in a fire base situation...you can't do that in a truck mounted system.
 
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doggtag    RE:I am still trying to understand why?   8/25/2004 6:33:55 PM
I'm not trying to say this is a necessity; only an option. Every weapon system has its pluses and minuses. I am not writing to the DoD and suggesting, "This is why you need this." No, I was only suggesting another possible option to towed guns...much the same as was discussed under the "AT Guns gone for good?" thread under the Armor category. Yeah, sure: in a situation like we had in A-stan, using M119s as fire base weapons like in 'Nam for supporting the forward guys is fine... but only so long as you know your adversary cannot put up effective counter battery fire. Certainly the 10th Mtn and a few others would have appreciated the additional fire support capabilities. But in an Army increasingly concerned with rapid actions/reactions and a more mobile force, towed guns in static emplacements seem a little of an anachronism. If you know the area will not fall under CBT, and you are going to play "local police force with artillery back-up", then you can make use of all the towed guns you want. But for main elements on the advance, in highly contested areas, no one has time to wait for an artillery group to set up their guns in a semi-permanent fixed site while the rest of the Army could easily advance well beyond the gun's maximum fire range in less than a day (about 18km for 105mm.) And putting the gun on a mount in the LMTV wouldn't increase the height any higher than the current vehicle (travelling configuration.) It was mentioned about where does all the gun crew go if the truck carries the gun. My question is, where do they go when their prime mover breaks down and another one takes the gun? Leave all the stuff in the broken down truck behind? Obviously, each truck carries a required amount of "stuff", with little room to take on more, and few "reserve vehicles" are available in such groups. And I agree that very few truck-mounted SPGs have 360 operations: mortars mostly. I do not have the traverse figures for the MOBAT at hand. But a 105mm gun, with a proper recoil mechanism, CAN be fired safely from a "light truck" chassis at a considerable traverse arc. Obviously, others see the concept has merit. The US Army, in its quest for more mobility and survivability, may well consider such a system. The FCS family, in its possible wheeled variant, if fitted with the 155mm suggeted for the tracked counterpart, will also not afford 360 operation. But a proposed "swap out" consideration suggesting a 105mm gun/howitzer could be exchanged in the same turret dimensions as a 120mm mortar CAN afford 360 traverse (check the FCS info over at Boeing's and UDLP's sites). I haven't ordered Jane's Armour and Artillery 2004-2005 yet, but they could offer much more data on these newer systems. And certainly the J's A&A Upgrades can give more info on the US Army's plans for 105mm in service. Keep it simple and towed, you'll lose out on keeping up with mobile forces (no fire on the move. Or also, no stop, deploy, fire, scoot, in 60-or-so seconds like mobile SPGs can afford.) And just how many UH-60s and CH-47s ARE needed to move 1 gun, 1 prime mover, and a worthwhile stock of ammo, crew provisions, and whatnot? A laden FMTV, carrying gun on board, would fall around 20,000lbs (guesstimating an LMTV model with an extra 4500 lbs of gun), which is transportable by CH-47 (the Brits hoof 8-10 ton Scorpion series vehicles routinely). Can't say I've ever seen a Blackhawk carry loaded Humvees prime-moving for 105mm guns, so I'm assuming the CH-47s are going to be involved somewhere in this equation. But ideally, you don't move an entire artillery group by helicopter. Resupply, certainly. But most likely, the artillery section will move as an entire group, on the ground, or "partial out"/attach to units needing the support. Certainly though, a helicopter can bring in replacement guns for fire bases, bu not all future ops are going to be centered around fire bases. If we're looking at artillery for infantry support only, then towing 120mm mortars (12km with RAP/ER) with ATVs is adequate, and easily Blackhawk transportable. Heck, why don't we create a towing limber and ammo caisson: then we can let the SFs on horseback tow it when they didn't get a Humvee or have a confiscated civilian vehicle or technical to function as prime mover for their gun..
 
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   RE:I am still trying to understand why?   8/25/2004 10:18:02 PM
Hey Folks, I say go to a 76mm on a HEMITT with a 80 round magazine with dual purpose rounds(anti air/ground) Sincerely, Keith
 
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   RE:I am still trying to understand why?   8/25/2004 10:18:06 PM
Hey Folks, I say go to a 76mm on a HEMITT with a 80 round magazine with dual purpose rounds(anti air/ground) Sincerely, Keith
 
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doggtag    76mm on a HEMTT?   8/25/2004 11:14:58 PM
double post aside, you actually raised the concept of the Italian ARMAD (ARMAT) 76/62 air defense tank, an OTOMelara naval gun mounted into a large tank turret and equipped with a very capable fire control system. The idea was to reach out and plink attack choppers, and other aicraft, out near 6km, well beyond their ATGM range. And certainly, the gun had a surface fire (counter-battery?) role with its extended range (20km) High Explosive Multi-Option Munition rounds. Considerable improvement has been gained in the AA/anti-missile area with the adoption of the SMART sub-caliber (discarding sabot) proximity fuzed round, and its DART derivative, fitted with "course correcting" control fins. The system (AA tank) has not been purchased by anyone, but is available. Since UDLP builds the Mk75 naval gun (US designation for the 76/62), naturally they would have a hand in it. But years ago, the US also rejected the 75mm ARES hypervelocity gun using telescoped ammo (mounted in the HSTV-L trials vehicle and suggested for the USMC LAV.) AAI makes a lethal KE round for the 76mm (used by South Africa for the Rooikat 8-wheel AFV, and several nations still operating M41 76mm armed tanks.) An interesting idea, but HEMTTs are best left to other roles (even though Sweden's Volvo teamed with Bofors to produce very capable rough-terrain trucks mounting 40mm AA, 120mm coastal guns, and 155mm artillery.) If we're gonna go that route, I suggest we take the HEMTT and fit it with several APKWS launchers (precision-guided 2.75in rockets, capable of 12km). Basing off the dimensions of the Brazilian AVIBRAS Skyfire/SBAT 70 system (a 36 round launcher), the HEMTT could theoretically be capable of easily deploying 108 rounds (3x36), if not more (depends if you want reloads or more launchers.) Of course, the single 36 round launcher can readily fit, with minor modifications, the cargo area of the "pick-up" model Humvee. And the 70mm rocket family, depending on warhead and motor, can reach 12km. Maximum warhead, over shorter ranges, is about 7kg, considerably more lethal than a 105mm shell. There are also effective HEDP and cluster rounds (anti-armor or anti-personnel bomblets, normally 6-12, depending on type.) The US has not been an advocate of multiple rocket systems since after the Korean War, up until the advent of the MLRS. Things like Honest John and Lance were one-shot weapons, so technically are of a different category (the MLRS being able to fire 2 TACMS/ATACMS missiles instead of the 2x6 pods of rockets.) US concerns seem to perhaps be more safety related, concerning backblast clearances maybe, plus there has always been "big gun" favoritism in Washington (we had 8" M110s years before we even considered the MLRS (9" rockets), possibly because, for a time, we didn't develop a small enough nuke round for 6" guns.) With the advent of expanding capabilities we can milk out of PGMs, certainly there is possibilty we see more MLRS systems in US service. But tube artillery (guns) offer cheaper ammunition for "brushfire" exchanges like A-stan. What kills your idea though, phantom poster, is that HEMTTs only come into theater in C-141s or greater. Actually, this idea you should suggest to Taiwan: a large number of high rate-of-fire, mobile (and concealable) SP arty guns could be rapidly road-deployed to counter any chinese naval invasion fleet: 76mm certainly. And maybe even copies of the Swedish CD80 120mm guns on their articulated Volvo chassis. Definitely would want magazine-feeding, to allow a higher rate of fire as opposed to "hand fed" 155mm guns. Even a truck-mounted knock-off of the French 100mm naval gun, which has laser- and IR-homing shells, could afford considerable potency. But the US is looking for "smaller, lighter, faster" for its rapid deployment forces. So we have no need of such a "monster" mobile SP gun. But certainly someone like Taiwan would appreciate the deterrent effect 100 or so could have (include some of the 35mm Millennium air defense guns installed on some of them also.).
 
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AlbanyRifles    A few things   8/26/2004 9:32:29 AM
1. The US Army does not operate artillery groups, they operate artillery brigades. Use precise terms precisely. 2. The M119 will not be employed in the field artillery brigades. The field artillery brigades will have 155mm & MLRS, just like they do now. Their mission is to provide general support, reinforcing or general support reinforcing to the division/fires UA which conduct the direct support mission. 3. The M119s are being employed in the air assault, airborne and light UAs, not in any of the armor UAs. So the speed of advance for the M119 equipped units is limited to the speed of the soldier moving on foot. There is not an issue with outreaching the artillery support. 4. 120mm mortars are NOT a substitute for tube artillery. 120mm mortars are great, but they are still not as accurate nor have as long a range as tube artillery. That is why the 82 ABN DIV and the 25 INF DIV brought theirs to Afghanistan and let the infantry fire the mortars. 5. While the LMTV can be used as a prime mover, most of those units use the HMMWV as a prime mover. And when it breaks down yes, you do abandon most of the gear....you cross load what you need to fire the gun (collimeter, aiming stakes, sight, etc.) and leave the vehicle behind. Either HSB picks it up or it gets blown in place. 6. You sling load the M119s and HMMWVs, not LMTVs. And yes you use UH-60s for troops and CH-47s for guns and HMMWVs. That's what all of those staff pukes get paid for....to mission plan those requirements. 6. The US field artilley doctrine in the 60s called for corps level rocket systems to fire nuclear weapons because technology did not allow for accuracy for effective HE fires. And yes, the US did have a 6" nuclear weapon whcih was fired from the 155mm howitzer. As accuracy got better, and submunitions became more capable, teh Army added teh MLRS to the inventory to serve 2 missions 1. Counterbattery; 2. Deep attack. It was not a matter of aversion to backblast effects (see TOW, DRAGON, Recoiless Rifle, Honest JOhn, Lance, Pershing) 8 inch was a legacy which allowed pinpoint accuracy at long range and also allowed nuclear fires. When the Army got out of the nuclear business, no more need to have 8 inch around.
 
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   RE:A few things   8/26/2004 11:48:39 AM
Hey doggtag, I back in the early 1990's suggested to my US Congressman the LCBA which had a two vehical radirs 2.75 in rocket launcher on a humvee and the 76mm OTO melera on hemitt. It was the first round in lite and more mobile US Army!!! and the HEMITT can be airloaded on the c-17 which can go allmost anywhere the c-130 can go. This force was a OMG type unit. Sincerely, Keith
 
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doggtag    RE:A few things   8/26/2004 11:54:59 AM
just out of curiosity, keith, what was your congressman's response to your suggestion?.
 
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   RE:A few things   8/26/2004 10:11:58 PM
Hey doggtag, That computers hard drive crashed and wiped out everything, so I can not get the exact date I sent it, and I have thrown away all of the replies, but when I requested the Armored Family of Vehicals to be canceled and replaced with a massive upgrade to the M1(M1A2SEP) it seems to have happened. I also set a limit to how much I thought a 2000 DOD budget should look like, and it included maintaining a force of 6 LCBA(note replaced by Chairman of the Jiont Chiefs of Staff with Styker brigades(I will try to spell name) Shinzeki) I requested the safty first approach to the C-141 replacement by the expensive, but with a single C-141 going down with load it was cheaper than you might think to invest in the C-17 and that he agreed with. Then there was my idea of child tax credits that is up to 1000 per child now!!!! Sincerely, Keith
 
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doggtag    RE:A few things   8/26/2004 10:28:46 PM
Keith, ever thought of taking your Civil Service Exams and actually putting in for a position in DC? Like me, you're gonna start "small" unless you REALLY know the right people. Certainly, make the most of those good ideas, buddy..
 
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   RE:A few things   8/26/2004 11:32:48 PM
Hey doggtag, I have been named by the National Republican Congressional Commitee as buisnessman of the year 2003. For this year I was honorary Chairman of the Buisness Advisor Council of the NRCC(I would have attended if had $5000 to pay for the trip and Gala). I have also recieved the NRC (National Republican Commitee) Gold Medal couple years ago!!! I have several ARNG contacts and politicians that would like to see my LCBA if it is payed for. I believe that the US Military could at little money equip the ARNG with sixteen LCR(lite cavalry Regiment) part of the LCBA at $300,000,000 apiece where the Air component would cost $22,000,000,000 which is a massive amount of money. The problem I am having now is sticker shock!!! Sincerely, Keith
 
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doggtag    sticker shock   8/26/2004 11:54:23 PM
That's the one that always shocked me to my roots: just how many zeroes to the LEFT of the decimal in a budget. And talk about audacity and gall! I too have be asked by BOTH Reps and Dems to not only vote for their candidate, but also "invited" to attend their dinners and galas out of my own pocket! What's that? Vote for you AND pay in $5000 just to attend some shindig and get a plate of lousy food? pu-LEAZE! I'm curious, keith: just what business are you in?.
 
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