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Subject: US Army considering renewed production of 105mm M119
doggtag    8/6/2004 5:34:58 PM
Over at Jane's Defence Weekly, http://jdw.janes.com/ there is an August 3 post: "The US Army is planning to re-introduce production of the M119A1 105mm towed howitzer, the US variant of the BAE Systems RO Defence 105mm Light Gun, to meet a shortfall of 105mm artillery that will result from the Army's reorganization, service officials said. The Army is looking for 275 new howitzers: 111 for active duty units and 164 for reserve components." (full article is avaliable to subscribers) Comparing the 105mm M119A1 howitzer, http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m119.htm http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/m119.htm to the 120mm M120 mortar, http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m120.htm http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/m120.htm What are the advantages the howitzer has over the mortar? From what I see, the howitzer's RAP can reach 19km, whereas the mortar in US service does not yet have such an extended range projectile, limiting the mortar to just over 7km, roughly half the range of the M119A1 howitzer. Also, the 120mm NATO-standard mortars have PGMs available (such as Strix, Bussard, and a few others), whereas the 105mm howitzers in US service do not yet have any PGMs (the 105mm STAFF round is not configured as separate-loading ammo for the howitzer, but could be implemented). Russian tube-launched missiles, by varying the propellant charge device, can be fired from 100mm guns (the 9M117 "Stabber"), including both the 2A70 of the BMP-3 and various Russian-built towed guns. Incorporating something like STAFF into the howitzer package could afford a self-defense weapon or an additional PGM for point targets. Even a new generation of PGM rounds developed for 105mm systems could present a defense contractor with another market to exploit, as several nations still employ 105mm artillery. The US does utilize a self-propelled version of the 120mm mortar, the M121 (in the M1064A3 vehicle). But to date, no self-propelled 105mm systems are in US service, although UDLP is testing various concepts that may prove favorable to US requirements. It is interesting that several NATO armies do still use towed 105mm guns/howitzers, yet very few still use 105mm SP systems. These countries do, however, utilize both SP and towed 155mm guns, and towed and SP 120mm mortars. Perhaps, with the desire to field more 105mm fire-support weapons, the US may yet consider some form of 105mm SP system. There were conceptual studies for a 105mm LEO-based system incorporated into the Stryker 8x8 chassis (as is UDLP's V2C2 weapon mentioned in another thread) and perhaps an option for the FCS NLOS-C (which currently seems to be favoring a 155mm/L38 weapon). Looking at the most cost-effective platform to develop an efficient SP mount for the US 105, (and this is entirely speculative), the LAV-25/Stryker 8x8 chassis and the stretched M113/MTVL hull are the two most favorable platforms in US inventory (or most readily acquired). Even reconditioning the older M113s (5 road wheels per side instead of the MTVL's 6) into the RISE standard with a slightly cut-down rear hull and incorporating a turreted 105, to vaguely resemble the 122mm 2S1 Gvozdika or the Abbot 105mm SP gun, would afford a shell-fragment/small arms proof artillery mount. This platform would easily fall under the US's stringent 20-ton weight limit for air-deployability. A four man crew would be sufficient for the relatively cramped M113 and Stryker hulls (considering a 105mm howitzer turret has just been installed). An autoloader would not be necessary for the 30-40lb 105mm shells. Modifications to some of the turreted 120mm direct-fire-capable mortars might allow the turret to swap out one weapon for another (as an example, the Russian 120mm 2S31 Vena self-propelled system can function as both artillery or mortar, depending on the propellant charge used: higher pressures for longer-ranged artillery modes). These under-20-ton hulls would have no problem handling the recoil of a 105mm howitzer. To go the more expensive route, there would be no reason a newer, longer ranged 105mm artillery piece could not be re-introduced into the M109-series hulls (the M108 was indeed the same hull, but mounting a 105mm weapon, and a considerably larger amount of 105mm shells). Such a system most likely will not see US service, though. There is also the RDM MOBAT, a 105mm/L33 ordnance mounted on a firing platform at the back of a 4x4 cargo truck: such a concept would fit the US 4x4 FMTV ideally, with minimal expense to implement as opposed to developing a fully enclosed armored SP system. Affording the M119A1 such a mobile capability could prove ideal. Perhaps even a light-capacity knuckleboom gantry/crane could afford the option to remove the gun from the vehicle and place it onto its ground-based chassis/firing platform? The pedestal on the cargo truck could be configured for rapid removal, so the truck would be available as a
 
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   RE:sticker shock   8/27/2004 12:31:06 PM
Hey doggtag, I have a real fancyfull one "Deli Clerk" the number of zeros in the federal budget goes like this $2,000,000,000,000+ Sincerely, Keith
 
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Sam    Now I understand   8/28/2004 11:01:26 AM
You want to incorporate all the disadvantages of a SP system and take away all the advantages of a towed system. Notice noone has bought MOBAT. Because it sucks. You have a gun that is ineffective if the prime mover goes down, gets stuck ect. That is too heavy to conduct an air raid/air assault. Cannot be pushed pulled or dragged into a firing position, and requires the truck to displace and emplace again to provide 6400 mil capability. If a standard truck bed could withstanf the shock of firing of a 105mm class, you would see every 3d world army with them. LAVs with 1/2 in decks could not withstand 120mm mortar shock. The USMC tried it with the low recoil version and kept cracking the hull. Try to fire a 105 off a standard truck anywhere other than straight ahead and you will warp the frame. Yes RVs and large cranes may have self leveling stabilizers but they don't operate where howitzers will fire from. AT least I hope you arn't taking your RV in those places. The "Section Gear" that is essential for firing consist of a collimater, a .50 cal box with all fuze setters/wrench another .50 cal box with the panoramic sight. Transfering that to another vehicle doesn't present vast logistical problems. Where do the people go? As I use to tell My CO when asked "How many Marines can ride in a "pick your vehicle" ? " One more, Sir! How long do you think it takes for a firing battery to occupy a position and fire cap? MCRESS and ARTEP standards is under 5 min for a 6 gun battery. From the time that the first vehicle enters the new position untill the last gun is layed, safed and XO min QE computed. FireCap in 8 min. 8 gun batteries conduct split battery operations so your "Outrun the fire support" doesn't happen. A 4 gun plt fircaps and the other platoon is on the move. When the first starts running out of support range the other platoon emplaces. First one CSMOs and it starts all over again. If a tgt requires all 8 guns to shoot, the platoon on the move will conduct a hipshoot. A SP howitzer isn't hipshooting in the 30 seconds you claim. 2 min towed or SP is more realistic. Done hipshoots on both and towed or SP take about the same time. Its not the guns that slow you down here its FDC. You really need to study Counter Battery operations and how the radar systems work. A-stan type terrain would be a perfect place to not have to worry about CBR/CBF. The wide travese range doesn't even manifest itself on the 109 series howitzers. Although capable of traversing and firing 6400 mils. Actual firing is normally restricted "Headlight to Headlight". Start shooting to the flanks and you bust torsion bars. Been there, done that. "How many And just how many UH-60s and CH-47s ARE needed to move 1 gun, 1 prime mover, and a worthwhile stock of ammo, crew provisions, and whatnot? " DOn't know about 60s and 47s but for a arty helo raid(something only a towed system can do), A CH-46 carries a M-101/ 40 rds of ammo, the section and mini FDC. For your casson and lumber remark. The Marine Corps teaches a mule packing course at MCMWTC for the 81mm mortars. Albany Rifles, did a great job on the other points. Albany, are you sure your not a artilleryman?
 
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doggtag    RE:Now I understand   8/30/2004 2:25:07 PM
So what your suggesting then, is that every dollar the US spent on SP guns which fire over more than just the frontal arc, has been a waste of taxpayer dollars? Perhaps we should just go back to 30-60 degree left-or-right-traverse gun platforms (circa M52 SPG)? Maybe you should forward this idea to a few Congressmen, get the ball rolling on yet another investigation into how defense contractors deceived the government to spend billions on the M109 series? Or do you suggest we get rid of SP guns altogether? Not being sarcastic at all here: I'm just saying, if you feel the turreted gun concept was a waste in the M109, then suggest through the proper channels why you think so, and maybe affect a more "positive" change in the system. ...and the reason that 120mm mortars compromise the hulls of LAVs (yet they have no problem in the M1064A3 mortar carriers- tracked M113 hulls?) may well have been that the hull floor just wasn't built for that kind of stress? Perhaps one of the recoiling mortars would suffice? Or turret mount it like the single-barrel AMOS or AMS (UAE uses dozens of LAVs in this configuration.) Besides, USMC and US Army DO have differing doctrines (Army uses heavier-lifting CH-47s, not CH-46s.) And just how long has it been since 105mm M101s (or the M102 successor) have been in service? Does the USMC still use them? LMTV/FMTV trucks were built to work off the beaten path: they're not highway-only vehicles like RVs. CH-47s CAN and DO lift LMTVs on occasion (one of the concerns years ago was that Chinooks could move M198 howitzers, but not the 5-ton prime movers, laden with ammo and crew stores.) The XM-777 Ultra Lightweight Howitzer was intended as a replacement for the 198, and was almost half the weight. But budget concerns have interfered considerably. The LMTVs have no trouble functioning as prime mover for these, so if it's decided to keep towed 155mm, this package affords the best solution (said vehicles are lighter and more fuel efficient that older 5-ton movers, and cost less logistically in maintenance and repair parts. A requirement for the faster, more mobile Army. I'm not interested in USMC requirements for the time being, although certainly they have equipment with much room for improvement, also. In the end, this was all a suggestion forum, not a requirement. Ultimately it is not my final call. But I am aware that the people who do decide such things have fallen to the "faster and more more mobile" doctrine that is being pushed. Besides, someone HAS expressed interest in the MOBAT: Jordan, for starters. Certainly not a world super power, but I never suggested this was a weapon only for superpowers. http://www.antenna.nl/amokmar/art/jordanDEN.html This article also goes more in depth as to just what a MOBAT system is capable of achieving (and the LMTV can be upgraded to a 4 ton capacity, by the Stewart & Stevenson site.) See also the Canadian MAVS requirement: http://www.sfu.ca/casr/101-artymavs.htm Seems others have decided the concept may well offer considerably enhanced capabilities (notice it incorporates ideally into "net-centric warfare" use, something the US Army is pursuing.).
 
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AlbanyRifles    RE:Now I understand   8/30/2004 3:26:12 PM
M109A6 was the ONLY of the M109 series that did not have to back up on the spade to shoot. Yes it can shoot 6400 mils but you still prefer to shoot off of the spades. There is no malfeasance. You may recall the M109A6 was seen as a stop gap until the Crusader went tinto production. M1064A3 has a buffering system in the mount. It is also a tracked vehicle which will spread out the impact throughout the track system. Ah, actually, no USMC and US Army have the same artilelry doctrine, that is why Sam taught at the US Army FA School. The may have different medium lift aircraft but that isn't what defines the doctrine. Heck, I would love to have some USMC CH-53s on hand. The US Army still used M101s until recently in Alaska because the pedastal and turntable stuck to the ice and snow. Seemed to fix with M119 mods. Sam, not a gunner, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night! No, I did take FA OBC by correspondence as an infantry 2 LT (long story why) and I did stay awake in IMPC, OBC & Advanced Course when they talked artillery. I always knew I was going to wear crossed boom sticks...the only question was would they be M1857 gun/ howitzers or 1795 Springfield muskets!
 
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Worcester    RE:Lighter and lighter...new MLRS   8/30/2004 3:49:03 PM
The deciding factors are airportability, especially helicopter lift and shoot n scoot. The Brits developed the 105mm Light Gun for this purpose and it equips all their light brigades. We got it after the Falklands - not only does it have range and is light but they didn't have a single problem after over 1000 rounds per gun in combat. And it performed well last year. The Brits have also produced a Light 155mm gun for heliborne ops which the USMC has just adopted. BUT if you want to see the way of the future, look at the new SP MLRS which the Brits are adopting. Fully SP with armored cab it handles 6 full MLRS rounds - the whole thing is Chinook portable as is the auto-reloader vehicle. They are giving this airmobile MLRS to all their medium/mech brigades in place of the existing SP 155mm which are not heli-portable.
 
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AlbanyRifles    RE:Lighter and lighter...new MLRS   8/31/2004 9:04:39 PM
Those look like a good idea. Are they ATACMS capable?
 
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doggtag    RE:Lighter and lighter...new MLRS   9/1/2004 4:30:07 PM
If they utilize the same 2x3 pod of MLRS rockets, then they can be programmed to accept the single "pod" of 1 TACMS/ATACMS round..
 
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AlbanyRifles    RE:Lighter and lighter...new MLRS   9/1/2004 4:49:01 PM
Aren't there a lot of fire control software changes which have to be made in order for an MLRS to fire ATACMS; hence the M270A1 versus M270
 
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macawman    RE:US Army considering renewed production of 105mm M119   9/2/2004 1:24:15 AM
Why is the Army increasing the number of M119A1s to the new brigade organizations? I think all you have to look to is how the M119s are used in the 82nd Airborne Div. The M119s offensive capability for light infantry is performed by CH-47 airlift to places where direct fire has efficacy. (Not in mountains or rugged terrain) My opinion is that the primary role these air transportable weapons in future Army Bdes will be primarily base security.
 
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Sam    RE:Now I understand   9/6/2004 2:59:40 PM
Defense contractors didn’t deceive the government. The 6400 Mil isn’t what sold the M-109. It was the armor protection for the crew. Protecting the crews from soviet counterbattery fire. Now as first built the 109 could not fire 6400 mils. Its daddy could, the M-108, 105mm howitzer. But the suspension wasn’t upgraded when they went to a 155 tube. M-109 had a 23 cal M126 tube and about the same range as the M-114. The benefit was crew protection. Then we slapped a M-185 tube in it and really stressed the chassis. Started cracking spades and a few other things. Then came the A-2/3 that reinforced those weak spots and provided decent on board ammo storage. But with increase of propellant charges was still confined to headlight to headlight shooting. But with the ballistic cover over the panoramic telescope, I could stay toasty warm in the winter. Wasn’t until the A6 that we put some money in the system and fixed the problems. But they are built from the ground up. I can remember a M109A3 that I could go to the gun book and show where it was converted from a 108 to a 109 then an A1 and finally a A3. If you need all around firecap than set up in a star formation. We cover those things in the op order. In an out of traverse mission (800mils) the “Time advantage” of a SP vs a towed system of laying on the target is ate up by the FDC and having to re-lay the guns. There is no difference. With a large shift in deflection you will: (1) lose your collimater (thats a given) (2) have a “line of metal” problem with your primary aiming post (3) If your “old school and put out 2 sets of AP(Left front/right rear), you will have too much displacement to use your secondary set. One of the reasons we don’t put them out anymore. (4) If you are in a position where you have a really good Distant aiming point , The FDC will have to compute and send individual piece data based on location of DAP and desired Sheaf . So the method normally used is to designate the guns that will shoot the mission. Spin them around and relay them on the new Az of Fire. Establish new AP and shoot the mission. Do this as the FDC is either loading the data in AFADATS or figuring BUCs data or chart and darting it. About the same amount of time regardless of the system used. Do I prefer towed weapons over SP? Yes, and its from experence. I have been a crewmember and section chief on M109s (A1&3) M110A2/M-107, M-101, M-114 and M-198. Also chiefed M102s and 119s at USAFAS but no fleet time since the MC doesn't have them. MOBAt advertises 90 degrees/1600mils of traverse, which is more than standard headlight to headlight but about 4800mils short of a circle. (Dogtag) the reason that 120mm mortars compromise the hulls of LAVs (yet they have no problem in the M1064A3 mortar carriers- tracked M113 hulls?) may well have been that the hull floor just wasn't built for that kind of stress? Duh, that’s the point I was making. A standard truck bed is not designed or manufactured to handle the stress of a 105mm firing. USMC and US Army have the same artillery doctrine. You may use H-60s instead of 46s and 47s instead of 53s but when it comes to doctrine and procedures we open the same books. I, unfortunately helped write one of them. One of the persistant nightmares from my days with the Gunnery department. (Dogtag) LMTV/FMTV trucks were built to work off the beaten path: they're not highway-only vehicles like RVs. I think we were discussing the auto leveling systems on RVs. It works good at camping grounds with RV pads or construction sites (Cranes) but you will never get me to believe they can level a gun truck in some of the firing positions I’ve shot from. Jordan and Canada, wow, I see Canada will use whatever system they get to replace their M-109s. Got rid of their tanks and scaling down their arty punch. They are quickly becoming nothing but a peace keeping force. What a shame. Jordan, Who will they fight? And if you look at their OB they have bought themselves out of the tactical displacement game. No heavy lifters. They even say that it will be an outstanding weapon for peacekeeping. For a capable military, there are no advantages over a 155mm if you insist on a wheeled platform. Arty will never be transported primarily by helo. Except maybe in the 82d. Ceasar and G-6 are both C-130 capable, 155 offers more lethal munitions and greater options. SP 105s are niche systems with limited flexability. Do you believe that the 198 is CH-47/53 lift capable 24/7 in any clime or place? Nowhere close. But they can lift them. At sea level, in temps under 80 deg and 40% humidity. If everything is tweaked just right and the pilot ate a lite lunch. That’s how MC gungrapes lost the Arty Raid mission. Now done by 81s As for tubes being replaced by rockets, bad idea. Rockets have a place in the deep strike/counterfire role (Corps arty) but not as a replacement for 155mm DS/GS rol
 
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