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Subject: US Army considering renewed production of 105mm M119
doggtag    8/6/2004 5:34:58 PM
Over at Jane's Defence Weekly, http://jdw.janes.com/ there is an August 3 post: "The US Army is planning to re-introduce production of the M119A1 105mm towed howitzer, the US variant of the BAE Systems RO Defence 105mm Light Gun, to meet a shortfall of 105mm artillery that will result from the Army's reorganization, service officials said. The Army is looking for 275 new howitzers: 111 for active duty units and 164 for reserve components." (full article is avaliable to subscribers) Comparing the 105mm M119A1 howitzer, http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m119.htm http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/m119.htm to the 120mm M120 mortar, http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m120.htm http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/m120.htm What are the advantages the howitzer has over the mortar? From what I see, the howitzer's RAP can reach 19km, whereas the mortar in US service does not yet have such an extended range projectile, limiting the mortar to just over 7km, roughly half the range of the M119A1 howitzer. Also, the 120mm NATO-standard mortars have PGMs available (such as Strix, Bussard, and a few others), whereas the 105mm howitzers in US service do not yet have any PGMs (the 105mm STAFF round is not configured as separate-loading ammo for the howitzer, but could be implemented). Russian tube-launched missiles, by varying the propellant charge device, can be fired from 100mm guns (the 9M117 "Stabber"), including both the 2A70 of the BMP-3 and various Russian-built towed guns. Incorporating something like STAFF into the howitzer package could afford a self-defense weapon or an additional PGM for point targets. Even a new generation of PGM rounds developed for 105mm systems could present a defense contractor with another market to exploit, as several nations still employ 105mm artillery. The US does utilize a self-propelled version of the 120mm mortar, the M121 (in the M1064A3 vehicle). But to date, no self-propelled 105mm systems are in US service, although UDLP is testing various concepts that may prove favorable to US requirements. It is interesting that several NATO armies do still use towed 105mm guns/howitzers, yet very few still use 105mm SP systems. These countries do, however, utilize both SP and towed 155mm guns, and towed and SP 120mm mortars. Perhaps, with the desire to field more 105mm fire-support weapons, the US may yet consider some form of 105mm SP system. There were conceptual studies for a 105mm LEO-based system incorporated into the Stryker 8x8 chassis (as is UDLP's V2C2 weapon mentioned in another thread) and perhaps an option for the FCS NLOS-C (which currently seems to be favoring a 155mm/L38 weapon). Looking at the most cost-effective platform to develop an efficient SP mount for the US 105, (and this is entirely speculative), the LAV-25/Stryker 8x8 chassis and the stretched M113/MTVL hull are the two most favorable platforms in US inventory (or most readily acquired). Even reconditioning the older M113s (5 road wheels per side instead of the MTVL's 6) into the RISE standard with a slightly cut-down rear hull and incorporating a turreted 105, to vaguely resemble the 122mm 2S1 Gvozdika or the Abbot 105mm SP gun, would afford a shell-fragment/small arms proof artillery mount. This platform would easily fall under the US's stringent 20-ton weight limit for air-deployability. A four man crew would be sufficient for the relatively cramped M113 and Stryker hulls (considering a 105mm howitzer turret has just been installed). An autoloader would not be necessary for the 30-40lb 105mm shells. Modifications to some of the turreted 120mm direct-fire-capable mortars might allow the turret to swap out one weapon for another (as an example, the Russian 120mm 2S31 Vena self-propelled system can function as both artillery or mortar, depending on the propellant charge used: higher pressures for longer-ranged artillery modes). These under-20-ton hulls would have no problem handling the recoil of a 105mm howitzer. To go the more expensive route, there would be no reason a newer, longer ranged 105mm artillery piece could not be re-introduced into the M109-series hulls (the M108 was indeed the same hull, but mounting a 105mm weapon, and a considerably larger amount of 105mm shells). Such a system most likely will not see US service, though. There is also the RDM MOBAT, a 105mm/L33 ordnance mounted on a firing platform at the back of a 4x4 cargo truck: such a concept would fit the US 4x4 FMTV ideally, with minimal expense to implement as opposed to developing a fully enclosed armored SP system. Affording the M119A1 such a mobile capability could prove ideal. Perhaps even a light-capacity knuckleboom gantry/crane could afford the option to remove the gun from the vehicle and place it onto its ground-based chassis/firing platform? The pedestal on the cargo truck could be configured for rapid removal, so the truck would be available as a
 
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   RE:I am still trying to understand why?   8/25/2004 10:18:02 PM
Hey Folks, I say go to a 76mm on a HEMITT with a 80 round magazine with dual purpose rounds(anti air/ground) Sincerely, Keith
 
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   RE:I am still trying to understand why?   8/25/2004 10:18:06 PM
Hey Folks, I say go to a 76mm on a HEMITT with a 80 round magazine with dual purpose rounds(anti air/ground) Sincerely, Keith
 
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doggtag    76mm on a HEMTT?   8/25/2004 11:14:58 PM
double post aside, you actually raised the concept of the Italian ARMAD (ARMAT) 76/62 air defense tank, an OTOMelara naval gun mounted into a large tank turret and equipped with a very capable fire control system. The idea was to reach out and plink attack choppers, and other aicraft, out near 6km, well beyond their ATGM range. And certainly, the gun had a surface fire (counter-battery?) role with its extended range (20km) High Explosive Multi-Option Munition rounds. Considerable improvement has been gained in the AA/anti-missile area with the adoption of the SMART sub-caliber (discarding sabot) proximity fuzed round, and its DART derivative, fitted with "course correcting" control fins. The system (AA tank) has not been purchased by anyone, but is available. Since UDLP builds the Mk75 naval gun (US designation for the 76/62), naturally they would have a hand in it. But years ago, the US also rejected the 75mm ARES hypervelocity gun using telescoped ammo (mounted in the HSTV-L trials vehicle and suggested for the USMC LAV.) AAI makes a lethal KE round for the 76mm (used by South Africa for the Rooikat 8-wheel AFV, and several nations still operating M41 76mm armed tanks.) An interesting idea, but HEMTTs are best left to other roles (even though Sweden's Volvo teamed with Bofors to produce very capable rough-terrain trucks mounting 40mm AA, 120mm coastal guns, and 155mm artillery.) If we're gonna go that route, I suggest we take the HEMTT and fit it with several APKWS launchers (precision-guided 2.75in rockets, capable of 12km). Basing off the dimensions of the Brazilian AVIBRAS Skyfire/SBAT 70 system (a 36 round launcher), the HEMTT could theoretically be capable of easily deploying 108 rounds (3x36), if not more (depends if you want reloads or more launchers.) Of course, the single 36 round launcher can readily fit, with minor modifications, the cargo area of the "pick-up" model Humvee. And the 70mm rocket family, depending on warhead and motor, can reach 12km. Maximum warhead, over shorter ranges, is about 7kg, considerably more lethal than a 105mm shell. There are also effective HEDP and cluster rounds (anti-armor or anti-personnel bomblets, normally 6-12, depending on type.) The US has not been an advocate of multiple rocket systems since after the Korean War, up until the advent of the MLRS. Things like Honest John and Lance were one-shot weapons, so technically are of a different category (the MLRS being able to fire 2 TACMS/ATACMS missiles instead of the 2x6 pods of rockets.) US concerns seem to perhaps be more safety related, concerning backblast clearances maybe, plus there has always been "big gun" favoritism in Washington (we had 8" M110s years before we even considered the MLRS (9" rockets), possibly because, for a time, we didn't develop a small enough nuke round for 6" guns.) With the advent of expanding capabilities we can milk out of PGMs, certainly there is possibilty we see more MLRS systems in US service. But tube artillery (guns) offer cheaper ammunition for "brushfire" exchanges like A-stan. What kills your idea though, phantom poster, is that HEMTTs only come into theater in C-141s or greater. Actually, this idea you should suggest to Taiwan: a large number of high rate-of-fire, mobile (and concealable) SP arty guns could be rapidly road-deployed to counter any chinese naval invasion fleet: 76mm certainly. And maybe even copies of the Swedish CD80 120mm guns on their articulated Volvo chassis. Definitely would want magazine-feeding, to allow a higher rate of fire as opposed to "hand fed" 155mm guns. Even a truck-mounted knock-off of the French 100mm naval gun, which has laser- and IR-homing shells, could afford considerable potency. But the US is looking for "smaller, lighter, faster" for its rapid deployment forces. So we have no need of such a "monster" mobile SP gun. But certainly someone like Taiwan would appreciate the deterrent effect 100 or so could have (include some of the 35mm Millennium air defense guns installed on some of them also.).
 
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AlbanyRifles    A few things   8/26/2004 9:32:29 AM
1. The US Army does not operate artillery groups, they operate artillery brigades. Use precise terms precisely. 2. The M119 will not be employed in the field artillery brigades. The field artillery brigades will have 155mm & MLRS, just like they do now. Their mission is to provide general support, reinforcing or general support reinforcing to the division/fires UA which conduct the direct support mission. 3. The M119s are being employed in the air assault, airborne and light UAs, not in any of the armor UAs. So the speed of advance for the M119 equipped units is limited to the speed of the soldier moving on foot. There is not an issue with outreaching the artillery support. 4. 120mm mortars are NOT a substitute for tube artillery. 120mm mortars are great, but they are still not as accurate nor have as long a range as tube artillery. That is why the 82 ABN DIV and the 25 INF DIV brought theirs to Afghanistan and let the infantry fire the mortars. 5. While the LMTV can be used as a prime mover, most of those units use the HMMWV as a prime mover. And when it breaks down yes, you do abandon most of the gear....you cross load what you need to fire the gun (collimeter, aiming stakes, sight, etc.) and leave the vehicle behind. Either HSB picks it up or it gets blown in place. 6. You sling load the M119s and HMMWVs, not LMTVs. And yes you use UH-60s for troops and CH-47s for guns and HMMWVs. That's what all of those staff pukes get paid for....to mission plan those requirements. 6. The US field artilley doctrine in the 60s called for corps level rocket systems to fire nuclear weapons because technology did not allow for accuracy for effective HE fires. And yes, the US did have a 6" nuclear weapon whcih was fired from the 155mm howitzer. As accuracy got better, and submunitions became more capable, teh Army added teh MLRS to the inventory to serve 2 missions 1. Counterbattery; 2. Deep attack. It was not a matter of aversion to backblast effects (see TOW, DRAGON, Recoiless Rifle, Honest JOhn, Lance, Pershing) 8 inch was a legacy which allowed pinpoint accuracy at long range and also allowed nuclear fires. When the Army got out of the nuclear business, no more need to have 8 inch around.
 
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   RE:A few things   8/26/2004 11:48:39 AM
Hey doggtag, I back in the early 1990's suggested to my US Congressman the LCBA which had a two vehical radirs 2.75 in rocket launcher on a humvee and the 76mm OTO melera on hemitt. It was the first round in lite and more mobile US Army!!! and the HEMITT can be airloaded on the c-17 which can go allmost anywhere the c-130 can go. This force was a OMG type unit. Sincerely, Keith
 
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doggtag    RE:A few things   8/26/2004 11:54:59 AM
just out of curiosity, keith, what was your congressman's response to your suggestion?.
 
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   RE:A few things   8/26/2004 10:11:58 PM
Hey doggtag, That computers hard drive crashed and wiped out everything, so I can not get the exact date I sent it, and I have thrown away all of the replies, but when I requested the Armored Family of Vehicals to be canceled and replaced with a massive upgrade to the M1(M1A2SEP) it seems to have happened. I also set a limit to how much I thought a 2000 DOD budget should look like, and it included maintaining a force of 6 LCBA(note replaced by Chairman of the Jiont Chiefs of Staff with Styker brigades(I will try to spell name) Shinzeki) I requested the safty first approach to the C-141 replacement by the expensive, but with a single C-141 going down with load it was cheaper than you might think to invest in the C-17 and that he agreed with. Then there was my idea of child tax credits that is up to 1000 per child now!!!! Sincerely, Keith
 
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doggtag    RE:A few things   8/26/2004 10:28:46 PM
Keith, ever thought of taking your Civil Service Exams and actually putting in for a position in DC? Like me, you're gonna start "small" unless you REALLY know the right people. Certainly, make the most of those good ideas, buddy..
 
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   RE:A few things   8/26/2004 11:32:48 PM
Hey doggtag, I have been named by the National Republican Congressional Commitee as buisnessman of the year 2003. For this year I was honorary Chairman of the Buisness Advisor Council of the NRCC(I would have attended if had $5000 to pay for the trip and Gala). I have also recieved the NRC (National Republican Commitee) Gold Medal couple years ago!!! I have several ARNG contacts and politicians that would like to see my LCBA if it is payed for. I believe that the US Military could at little money equip the ARNG with sixteen LCR(lite cavalry Regiment) part of the LCBA at $300,000,000 apiece where the Air component would cost $22,000,000,000 which is a massive amount of money. The problem I am having now is sticker shock!!! Sincerely, Keith
 
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doggtag    sticker shock   8/26/2004 11:54:23 PM
That's the one that always shocked me to my roots: just how many zeroes to the LEFT of the decimal in a budget. And talk about audacity and gall! I too have be asked by BOTH Reps and Dems to not only vote for their candidate, but also "invited" to attend their dinners and galas out of my own pocket! What's that? Vote for you AND pay in $5000 just to attend some shindig and get a plate of lousy food? pu-LEAZE! I'm curious, keith: just what business are you in?.
 
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