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Subject: Best SP Arty - What's your opinion?
PuckaMan    12/30/2003 4:15:10 AM
Well, just about all the other boards are doing it, so may as well here. What do you think is the SP Arty system currently in operation? (Doesn't include Crusader, last I heard it was cancelled). Also, differentiate between Tube and Missle/Rocket systems. My Opinion is theat the Pz2000 is the best right now, with the AS90 and M109A6 coming close behind. I think unlike Armour, Arty can be effectively evaluated without combat experience. The main reason I'm starting this thread is that Australia is apparently looking at New Arty to go with the New Tanks. Although really our chance of getting tracked SP Arty is slim, it'd be interesting to see what people think. (On that note, we'd probably get something like CEASAR or theat New Bofors/Haggunds or what ever wheeled system). Thoughts Please..
 
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TriggaFingaz    Whoops   6/22/2004 5:08:36 PM
Forget about the G5 nomination, that's a towed gun. But the G6 is ok, it's on a wheeled truck.
 
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french stratege    vok: French auf1 is 6 round in 45s   8/14/2004 9:24:56 PM
so 8 per minute.
 
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french stratege    RE:Best SP Arty - What's your opinion? Australia   8/14/2004 9:36:22 PM
The French have decided to move on AUF1/CASEAR/TR155.For airmobility they rely on 120 mm riffled mortar now long range and more accurate than smothboremortar (but more expensive).All regiments have double equipement of 155 mm and 120mm RIFFLED mortars.So depending airlift or ground/naval transport all regiment have the choice.This supplemented by some 105 mm for moutain/airbone troops and MRLS. Artillery is good only if C4ISR is good also. The french doctrine is put in battery as fast you can, get immediately objective positions, fire a accurate salvo of 6/12 rounds in 45' or 1m30' with appropriate shells and move immediately to an other position to avoid counterbattery.What it count is not only numbers is quality. If your artillery is preserved from counterbattery and have fast fire rate, what count is the number of shells available.
 
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french stratege    AUF1   8/14/2004 9:39:17 PM
French AUF1 updated with 52 caliber will fire the Giat Pelican shell with GPS guidance at 100 km.
 
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neutralizer    RE:Best SP Arty - What's your opinion?   9/3/2004 6:40:26 AM
M109A6 is way behind AS90. Before opting for AS90 UK considered M109A6, it fell far short of what was required. While it's true that M109A6 has some of the same sub-assemblies as AS90 (and PzH2000), most notably MAPS, this ignores all the other factors. First amongst these is probably the least known, the Brits had found that use of top charge was causing the M109 turret ring to start cracking, given that the Brits had fired hardly any top charge thru M109 (they used L6 which was basically triple base propellant re-packaged from 5.5-inch chg super and hence cooler burning and less violent than US red bag) this is clearly signalling something. More obviously M109 is basically a 1950 design close to the end of its design life. More specific drawbacks are the laughably small onboard ammo load and the equally laughable rate of fire. Add to this the continued use of an old fashioned screw breech without a primer magazine, no aux gene, the need to drop spades, need I go on? PzH2000 merit is basically the largest onboard ammo load and a LRF for direct fire (although I consider that gold plating), plus some automative compatibility with Leopard which offers logistic advantage if you are a Leo user. The only other might be the prop stowage in the turret buzzle protected by armoured doors. The theoretical benefit of stowing shells on the floor isn't properly exploited when you get to the issue of 'bombing up' time - AS90 can load 48 rds in 7 mins, PzH 60 in a bit under 11 mins (perhaps Brit soldiers work harder than Germans). The unknown is price. Of course once you start considering what's on offer PIP wise there are some other issues AS90 seems to be much faster thru a stop, fire, move routine and it's not clear why PzH is so slow.
 
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boris the romanian    RE:Best SP Arty - What's your opinion?   9/3/2004 10:59:13 AM
How do you guys rate the 2S19? I personally rate it as superior to the M109A6 on account of its better mobility, armour protection, rate of fire, better ammunition, and not needing to "dig in". I think a 2S19 with some electronics upgrades and a 52 cal. barrel (instead of the current 48) will make it easily the equal of the AS-90 or PzH-2000, the Western guns' burst facility being their advantage, while their lighter, less destructive ammunition being their disadvantage.
 
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neutralizer    RE:Best SP Arty - What's your opinion?   9/4/2004 4:17:49 AM
The short answer is not highly at all. Its problem is the SP70 style external ammo handling gear to get ammo into the turret. Nothing can be done about this until the turret is put on a proper artillery chassis. Then you can add all the other points alluded to. Incidentally the remarks about western ammo are wrong. While M107 HE is 'venerable' with a comparitively small HE content 1970s era L15 is a different beast entirely. My understanding is that the 152mm OF540FRAG weighs 43.5 kg and contains 6.3 kg of HE, OF550 seems to be a more modern design 40 kg, 6.9 kg fill. M107 is 43.1 with 6.8 kg, L15 is 43.5 with 11.8 kg. A recent quote I found from GW1 'Some captured Iraqis tended to dismiss the effects of bomblet rounds but commented on the dreadful effects of L15 on troops in trenches'.
 
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Terrex    RE:Best SP Arty - What's your opinion?   10/6/2004 3:13:22 AM
PLZ-45 ,Best SP arty,why? read below! From The PLZ-45 (also known as Type 88) 155 mm, 45 calibre self-propelled howitzer (categoried as gun-howitzer by the PLA) was developed by NORINCO in the early 1990s for the international market. The system was jointly developed by the 123 Factory, 127 Factory, 674 Factory and Beijing Univeristy of Science and Technology based on the towed 155 mm/45 calibre gun-howitzer. In the 1997 international competition to provide Kuwaiti Army with a battalion (72 units) self-propelled artillery systems, the PLZ-45 surprisingly defeated US and Europe competitors to win the contract. This sale was a particularly telling assessment of the howitzer's capabilities since the Kuwaiti Army has the budget to purchase nearly whatever it wants. A battalion of howitzers were delivered to the Kuwait along with a full package of support,command and control, forward observer, and radar vehicles. In 2001, the Kuwaitis ordered an additional 74 howitzers due to its excellent performance.
 
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davoj    RE:artillery is useless without air cover   10/10/2004 6:19:39 AM
pretty sure that argunebt was made during WW1, WW2 th ekorean war, the vietnam war all trhe middle east wars all through africa and during th cold war. I think arty is here to stay for a while longer! DavoJ
 
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Yimmy    RE:artillery is useless without air cover   10/10/2004 2:19:22 PM
"This sale was a particularly telling assessment of the howitzer's capabilities since the Kuwaiti Army has the budget to purchase nearly whatever it wants" That is a myth, Middle Eastern countries such as Kuwait and Saudi-Arabia have never been that rich, especially where it comes to military equipment. It all depends on the varying price of oil from year to year, and what the neighbouring nations are doing. There is no way the Chinese gun with its 45 cal barrel can have beatern Western guns with their 50 cal barrels performance wise; the only reason Kuwait can have chosen the Chinese weapon can have been on cost grounds.
 
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