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Subject: Best SP Arty - What's your opinion?
PuckaMan    12/30/2003 4:15:10 AM
Well, just about all the other boards are doing it, so may as well here. What do you think is the SP Arty system currently in operation? (Doesn't include Crusader, last I heard it was cancelled). Also, differentiate between Tube and Missle/Rocket systems. My Opinion is theat the Pz2000 is the best right now, with the AS90 and M109A6 coming close behind. I think unlike Armour, Arty can be effectively evaluated without combat experience. The main reason I'm starting this thread is that Australia is apparently looking at New Arty to go with the New Tanks. Although really our chance of getting tracked SP Arty is slim, it'd be interesting to see what people think. (On that note, we'd probably get something like CEASAR or theat New Bofors/Haggunds or what ever wheeled system). Thoughts Please..
 
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shawn    RE:Best SP Arty - What's your opinion? Australia   2/6/2004 8:07:29 PM
I mentioned a mixed regiment because that's the most likely number Australia would buy. Around 100 systems at the most. Mayhaps I've gotten my arty terminology wrong, I assumed battery is equivalent to battalion, but upon consideration, it would be more in line with a company. Mixed regiments are exactly what the US Army is IIRC operating at the moment, combining a battalion of MLRS with two of Paladins. And Australia will rarely need a whole regiment on the line for anything short of a major war. A battery of SPH detached to, say Timor Leste, would be more than adequate arty coverage. And I think you've mistaken my post with regards with 'wheeled' artillery. All the systems I mentioned are wheeled Self-Propelled Howitzers (SPH) not towed. All these wheeled systems are capable of self-deployment on road across long ranges, a major condsideration for internal deployment in Australia. They are also all air-portable. I know for a fact that the LWSPH of Singapore can be carried slung by Chinook. Try that with a PZH 2000. The same is true for HIMARS, plus it has the accuracy of the MLRS. The PZH 2000 system is great, but does it really suit Australia's conditions? How are you going to get a battery from, say Perth to Darwin? Buying heavy systems would require tank transporters. If the ADF goes for the Abrams MBT, they'll need 100 new tank transporters & drivers sitting around on standby for any deployment. Adding another 100 for a heavy SPH wouldn't be a small matter. Why would Australia need 52 calibre guns? Apart from the added weight, who would you shoot at that distance? Anyway, HIMARs can shoot up to 300km with the TACM. As Adm. Groshov said, 'Perfect is the enemy of good enough.' Getting a huge, expensive SPH system, and all its logistics and transporting nightmares may give you great firepower, but its a white elephant if you can't get it to where its needed, it can't maneuver where its needed (try driving a PZH 2000 through the terrain of Timor Leste), and it's used at short ranges. Why even bother getting it? BTW, in this day and age of APUs, very few modern towed howitzers are hand traversed, (at least until the the APU breaks down). APUs have also enabled fire rates up to 6 rounds in 30 seconds, and 8 rounds per minute sustained. Singapore just put into service the SSPH Primus, a 28 ton 39 calibre tracked SPH. It's specifically designed to suit narrow terrain and road bridges with 30 ton weight limits. It's got the same maneuverablilty as a Bradley, and can shoot and scoot 6 round burst in under 2 minutes. A battalion of 18 is now in New Zealand for live firing, and I can bet you that there will be ADF observers.
 
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boris the romanian    RE:Best SP Arty - What's your opinion? Australia   2/6/2004 11:23:06 PM
hybrid, i am aware of the number of sub-munitions each system carries. but you can't argue with the range or the price. remember, it isn't overly difficult to modify the payloads so long as the external surface and the weight (and centre of gravity) remain the same. i know australia doesn't buy russian, but the point i was trying to make was that in artillery, russia is a world leader.
 
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Worcester    RE:Best SP Arty - What's your opinion? Australia   2/6/2004 11:38:34 PM
A US arty regiment is what the Australians would call an arty brigade; an arty batallion is what they call a regiment. Each regt (bn to us) has 3-5 batteries of which 2-3 tubes, 1 forward observers and 1 HQ. 1 tube Battery (a company-size unit of 6-8 tubes) is usually dedicated to 1 front line unit (inf. batallion/armor bn); so, with 3 tube batteries an arty regiment (bn) can provide fire support for a brigade. Two Paladin regiments (bn) support 2 brigades and the MLRS is the divisional fire regiment (bn). The two Paladin bns and the 1 MLRS are grouped administratively in the divisional arty brigade (regt to us). Since a regt (bn) supports a specific brigade with batteries dedicated to the brigade's individual units it is not normal to mix systems at this level. Plays havoc with mutual support and logistics. What is the point of arty unless it outranges the enemy? 52 cal weight is insignificant in relation to the whole system. Rocket systems like MLRS are not accurate; they just spread their load over a wide area. Good arty is accurate to 1 mil and 0.5% azimuth. Much more useful in everything from peace support right up to support for forward units in close contact with the enemy. The tracked systems do travel better and carry a larger outload than most wheeled, but they are expensive. Not aware that any wheeled SP are liftable by any helos in Australian service; but air cargo is possible. The advantage with the SP I mentioned is they (1) protect the crew and (2) are 360" traversable. Remember, you're going to fight a battle. The Caesar and the LWSPH are not traversable; like towed arty which has perhaps only 30" traverse, they have to be moved by hand - yes perhaps using an APU or re-parking it - rather than pushing a button to swing the turret; this means that in a hull-down or gun pit they can't be moved. If you say tracks are too expensive, and road speed, air, helicopter and amphib are critical then they need wheeled SP (road/air) and towed (helicopter). The best mix would be the South African G6 (heavy) and the Brit M777 (helo/amphib). The French Caesar seems a compromise between the two - too little range, too immobile and unprotected in a full battle and too heavy (14 tons) for light force helo lift. Doesn't mean they wont go for it - its undoubtedly cheaper overall. Are you sure the Aussies are looking for 100 tubes? That's over five regiments (battalions) supporting 16 front line batallions; didn't know they had that many.
 
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hybrid    RE:Best SP Arty - What's your opinion? Australia   2/7/2004 12:41:00 AM
Boris of course you're right on the range and cost ;) No arguing there. The main point is on interoperability. The Smerch system isn't used by many other countries outside of Russia. MLRS on the other hand has quite a few buyers and the Aussies know they can get replacement parts for certain from the US, its a bit harder to guarantee that from Russia. As far as payload goes, yep they can be modified, but does the payload or rather the whole system take into account of interfacing with other systems? Such as GPS, BlueForce tracker, counter battery radar? Not saying Smerch "couldn't" just asking whether those features are implemented. If on the other hand you were asking me what is the best system India or even say Brazil could get, I'd go with Smerch, lower cost, probably more rugged for the terrain, easier maintenance schedule (I hope) ;)
 
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boris the romanian    RE:Best SP Arty - What's your opinion? Australia   2/7/2004 1:58:27 AM
"GPS, BlueForce tracker, counter battery radar?" err, dude, the rocket system itself has nothing to do with this as they are ungided. the chassis can very easily be modified to accomodate these changes. and, with regards to spares and replacements, this wouldn't be a problem if they were built here (in Australia) like the F-18s and the Steyr F-88s were. which leads us to another "interesting" possibility...do the words "reverse engineering" mean anything to you......? LOL.
 
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shawn    RE:Best SP Arty - What's your opinion? Australia   2/7/2004 2:09:15 AM
My 100 tubes was an assumption, including spares and training systems. That's more or less the number of systems Singapore has, BTW. I know most wheeled SPHs don't have 360 degree traverse, and neither does the Primus I mentioned. For the case of both the Primus and the LWSPH, this limitation was accepted considering the operational utility of the vehicles. The LWSPH in particular was designed to give heilborne and amphbious assault units a lightweight and mobile 155mm howitzer for organic fire support. In Singapore service, both these systems would be backed up by the 52 calibre FH2000.
 
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fullamongo    RE:Best SP Arty - What's your opinion? Australia   4/7/2004 6:25:00 AM
The best 155mm has to be the South african G6-52. It'll hit you on the head from 67km. Rate of fire 8rnds per minute.
 
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rocketpower    MLRS is more than just unguided rockets.   4/11/2004 9:23:11 PM
Just wanted to correct some facts. Couple previous poster stated MLRS is not accurate. That is simply not true. M270A1 and Himars use both Inertial Positioning and GPS and retain high levels of accuracy durring fire missions. MLRS fires much more than just unguided rockets. The MLRS family can fire standard M26 or extended range M26A1 unguided rockets. The Himars and M270A1 variants can fire a GPS guided rocket with ranges in excess of 60km. The push in US ARMY is in equiping MLRS brigades with ATACMS. This gives field artillery commanders ranges of 175km (300km for extended range variants). The ATACMS can delivery a APAM (anti persanel anti material) payload or 13 BATS (brilliant anti armor technology). BATS are deployed by the ATACMS over target area and each using accoustic and infared sensors can home in on individual armor unit. The shaped charge in BAT is designed to defeat all known and future armor. MLRS is designed to destroy high value targets, targets of opertunity, and inititate planned fires. MLRS won't replace tube artillery rather it supliments it. HIMARS (light wheeled version of MLRS) can be deployed by a C-130 aircraft fully armed and fueled if needed.
 
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Adamantine    RE:MLRS is more than just unguided rockets.   6/16/2004 3:51:18 PM
MLRS has two advantage compare to SMERCH that is not widely known. MLRS in the bradley chassis is much more well protected than SMERCH. MLRS on HIMAR truck has same level of vulnerability as SMERCH but it is much smaller truck and would be less conspicuous to CAS trying to destroy it. MLRS could easily outrange SMERCH by fitting it with ATACMS (same lancher as MLRS) although you only have two rounds but a good logistic and high reloading rate and superior range will make up for it
 
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TriggaFingaz    South African guns   6/22/2004 5:07:46 PM
Would any one care to mention the G5 and G6 155mm which outrange both the M109A-6 and British AS90?
 
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