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Subject: Question to ArtyEngineer
FCUS    10/25/2008 4:50:56 PM
I don't know much about artillery and I would like to know the difference between the CEASAR and the ARCHER. From what I read it's mostly a difference of weight because I believe they have similar range and firing rate. Can you help me? Could you please also tell me in what situation you would use both guns? Thank you for your time mate !
 
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ArtyEngineer    Hey FCUS   11/14/2008 1:13:21 PM
Where you at?  Surprised you dont have any follow up questions, or was my response that good it answered everything!!!!  ;)
 
Regards
 
Arty
 
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doggtag    Geez, AE...   11/14/2008 2:17:45 PM
...for not liking the Archer because of all its automation and rather minimal crew,
you must absolutely loate the NLOS-C and its wee little 2-man team!
 
Upgraded M109s for the win?
(just how we gonna squeeze those L52 tubes in there?)
 
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ArtyEngineer    DT   11/14/2008 3:19:55 PM

...for not liking the Archer because of all its automation and rather minimal crew,

you must absolutely loate the NLOS-C and its wee little 2-man team!

 

Upgraded M109s for the win?

(just how we gonna squeeze those L52 tubes in there?)


No Comment!!!!!!!   My feelings are known :)  I will say this though, there was a Complete NLOS-C Crew Compartment set up beside teh vehicle at teh AUSA show and I got to process a fire mission.  It was like sitting at teh helm of the Starship Enterprise!!!!!   Everything is on large multifunction touch screen displays.  It had some serious cool points!!!!  Totally takes the fun out of things!!!!
 
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neutralizer       11/14/2008 10:13:03 PM
The Israelis also have a Caesar like gun, which they also offer in other calibres such as 152 and 122 in addition to 155.
 
It's interesting that the theory was that 52 cal barrels should only need 6 charge sizes (ie base + up to 5 standard size modules).  Of course Archer isn't JBOU compliant but and this may be the reason for the half size incerements used at lower charges (the larger chamber means lack of range overlap between whole charges).
 
Its not clear how the charge handling system is working, at a guess 2 feed 'magazines' for base charges, 1 for half charges, and 10 for standard modules plus a charge assembly tray from which the assembled charge is actually loaded? This would allow any combination of 20 charges.
 
FPF is somewhat irrelevant, it's only about speed of initial response and frankly anyone who uses FPF and then waits for MRSI has probably lost the plot.  When dealing with dismounted attack then firing bursts of 10 or 15 rds per gun, with at least the early bursts following each other very quickly in an engagement that may last a few hours is fairly nomal if the situation emerges, as it did for UK in 2003.   AS90 rate of fire seems to have been useful, MRSI unneccesary when airburst is used.  It also demonstrates the importance of deploying btys to keep these sort of engagements at reasonably short range, half - two thirds of max.  This means that lower charges can be used, which means the barrels won't overheat and stop the guns firing (remember barrel heating at top charge is the constraint that sets the 'official' rates of fire, lower charges allow detachments to fire as fast as they can).  But with towed 155 you either need very large detachments or a few bionic men to sustain this sort of fire, particularly if you don't have power or flick ramming.
 
Note that Caesar is never going to achieve successive and rapid bursts of 10 or 15 rds unless the detachment is a lot bigger.  Ammo handling (unpacking and delivering to the loader) is always the constraint, if the gun in the pic could achieve 3 rds per minute I'd be pleasantly surprised.  That's why SPs with a good on board load close to the breach have an advantage, particularly when the onboard load can be topped up during firing.  It's also the reason why Archer's small onboard crew is a bit of a joke, somewhere there's a crowd of guys unpacking the ammo and loading it into the reloading vehicles.
 
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ArtyEngineer    Neutralizer   11/15/2008 12:52:25 AM

The Israelis also have a Caesar like gun, which they also offer in other calibres such as 152 and 122 in addition to 155.

 

It's interesting that the theory was that 52 cal barrels should only need 6 charge sizes (ie base + up to 5 standard size modules).  Of course Archer isn't JBOU compliant but and this may be the reason for the half size incerements used at lower charges (the larger chamber means lack of range overlap between whole charges).

 

Its not clear how the charge handling system is working, at a guess 2 feed 'magazines' for base charges, 1 for half charges, and 10 for standard modules plus a charge assembly tray from which the assembled charge is actually loaded? This would allow any combination of 20 charges.

 

FPF is somewhat irrelevant, it's only about speed of initial response and frankly anyone who uses FPF and then waits for MRSI has probably lost the plot.  When dealing with dismounted attack then firing bursts of 10 or 15 rds per gun, with at least the early bursts following each other very quickly in an engagement that may last a few hours is fairly nomal if the situation emerges, as it did for UK in 2003.   AS90 rate of fire seems to have been useful, MRSI unneccesary when airburst is used.  It also demonstrates the importance of deploying btys to keep these sort of engagements at reasonably short range, half - two thirds of max.  This means that lower charges can be used, which means the barrels won't overheat and stop the guns firing (remember barrel heating at top charge is the constraint that sets the 'official' rates of fire, lower charges allow detachments to fire as fast as they can).  But with towed 155 you either need very large detachments or a few bionic men to sustain this sort of fire, particularly if you don't have power or flick ramming.

 

Note that Caesar is never going to achieve successive and rapid bursts of 10 or 15 rds unless the detachment is a lot bigger.  Ammo handling (unpacking and delivering to the loader) is always the constraint, if the gun in the pic could achieve 3 rds per minute I'd be pleasantly surprised.  That's why SPs with a good on board load close to the breach have an advantage, particularly when the onboard load can be topped up during firing.  It's also the reason why Archer's small onboard crew is a bit of a joke, somewhere there's a crowd of guys unpacking the ammo and loading it into the reloading vehicles.


I would dearly love to get inside teh back of the Archer to have a good look at teh ammo handling system myself!!!!  The picture of teh Uniflex Charge I posted is kinda blurry, but it only has 2 types of increment, Zone 1 and Zone 0.5.  Its teh way they lock together that makes teh Base look like a bigger increment.
Regarding FPF, I too was off teh opinion that it was a mission from a bygone age, that was until units in Afghanistan had to start shooting them!!
Regarding sustained fire on a towed howitzer, totally agree it certainly isnt a job for the weak!!!!!
 
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FCUS    ArtyEngineer and neutralizer   11/15/2008 10:53:27 AM
Thank you for your answers, especially AE you made a special effort to answer me, I truly aprpeciate it thank you. Now I can see even more clearly the difference between the two systems.
I have some more questions though. You obviously tried to keep your explainations simple but there are some terms that kinda lost me.
 
- JBMOU compliant? Is this related to NATO (lile being able to fire any NATO ammo?)
 
- increments (when you mentioned the charge system), and zone 1 to 6 when talking about increments. I know from videos that you put something between the shell and the loading part of the gun but I don't really know what it's for...
 
- you mentioned "drum types magazines" when talking about the CAESAR. What is that ?
 
Thank you againf or your time guys, I really appreciate it! I learned a lot in one post !
 
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neutralizer       11/17/2008 5:27:44 AM
 JBMOU ? Joint ballistics Memorandum of Understanding for the 155mm 52 calibre barrel with 23 litre chamber agreed circa 1980 by FR, GE, IT, UK & US. This agreement was based on use of modular charges.

In about 1963 the BMOU for the 39 calibre barrel didn?t include FR. These nations also agreed some characteristics of a 155mm shell, notably a weight of about 45 kg and the length and shape of the US rocket assisted HE shell, but not necessarily with the rocket or other form of assistance.

None of this was a ?NATO? agreement in formal terms. There is actually no such thing as NATO standard artillery ammo.

Artillery propelling charges (cartridges) consist of charge bags filled with propellant, they may or may not be in a metal cartridge case, 105mm are but the 155mm BMOU and JBMOU are based on carts without metal cases. There may be 2 or 3 separate carts covering different range bands, and the highest charge may be just the one big bag. The charge bags are numbered 1 to whatever, up to 10 in 203mm (M110A2) but 8 is usually the max for modern 155mm. With the carts holding several bags then bags may be removed to bring the set down to the required size. In these conventional carts each bag is usually a different size. Ie if you have a cart like L8 which covers charges 3 ? 7, then if charge 5 is ordered bags 7 and 6 are removed.

US uses single base propellant and they have green and white bag carts, with charges 3 -5 existing in both. Europeans designs use triple base propellant and don?t have the green and white bags (although they may use a standard colour for each bag number). There several synonyms when talking about charges bags, sometimes they are called increments, zones, portions and others names.

Modular charges are different, the basic concept is to a have a base charge and then identical size modules, the JBMOU seems to have envisaged up to 5 of these identical modules to give reasonable range overlap at each charge. Archer probably needs the half modules because it has a bigger chamber and without the halves the overlap at short ranges is insufficient.

Rotating drum mags are one way of holding shells and charges in the turret and presenting them to the loading system. Obviously big drums aren?t a very efficient use of space, other modern SPs use other arrangements.

The purpose of FPF and its predecessors (DF(SOS) and SOS) was to provide an instant response, the guns were loaded and layed on the SOS tgt and a gun sentry stood by the gun and fired it when order (which helpfully woke the detachment to continue firing). However, loading on the FPF generally stopped awhile back, and in the modern age when most shells are fitted with multi-function fuzes is not the best idea because the next tgt is most likely not to be the FPF. Of course with big guns (anything above L118) then leaving the gun pointing towards the most likely target area is always a good idea. Computers producing instant data have chopped that bit of time out of the response time, even better if there?s data to the gun. All in all the response time for an FPF is unlikely to be much different to any other fire mission, although its worth pointing out that some western armies are much slower than others and may benefit more from an FPF. It?s possible the real benefit of an FPF is if it means the guns can fire without waiting for an air clearance,  although I?d be pleasantly surprised if the USAF had agreed to this.

 
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FCUS       11/19/2008 12:22:41 PM

Thank you again neutralizer for your time !!
 
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