Military History
|
How To Make War
|
Wars Around the World
Rules of Use
How to Behave on an Internet Forum
Artillery
Discussion Board
Return to Topic Page
Subject:
Towed Artillery Displacement times
FD
7/18/2007 10:25:46 AM
What would be an average time for a towed battery of 8 to tear down to move to an alternate location? I can't find a standard time for this event. Assume a non-digitized battery with wire connections over a 300m area. I'm assuming they could move at least 700m in about 2 mintues once they are packed up but I'm not sure how long it would take to tear down after the last shot. Thanks.
Quote
Reply
Show Only Poster Name and Title
Newest to Oldest
Pages:
1
2
Carl S
7/18/2007 11:59:55 AM
This has probablly be discussed here before, but its faster for me to look it up.
From the US 'Marine Corps Combat Readyness Evaluation Standards' book circa 1987.
Task 5A,1,23 Conduct An Emergency Displacement
Items .3 and .4 state: ...all howitzers... mission essential equipment must be displaced 200 meters within three minutes.
That was nt at all difficult for us to accomplish with the old M101 or M102 105mm howitzers, the M114 155mm towed howitzer, or the various self propelled cannon. With the eight ton M198 (155mm) that replaced all those on the USMC gun park it took closer to five minutes to limber the beast.
Of course someone would have to return to recover whatever the enemy had left you in the old position : )
Back in the six gun battery days we did ordinary displacements in stages. An advance party would leave at least a quarter hour before the battery was expected to displace. The Adv Pty would usually take one or two cannon with them to provide emergency suppresion fires when the main body moved. A quarter hour or so before displacement a signal would be give to secure all non mission essential equipment, working partys would return to their sections, some vehicals move to the road, cammoflage removed if possible... When the final order for "March Order" was given five to ten minutes were sufficent for limbering the cannon and loading the remaining equipment. Some times a rear party would remain to complete repairs on a vehical, load extra ammo, or other tasks.
With the eight cannon batterys we usually moved by platoons. Each platoon displaced much the same as the six cannon battery, except the advance party did not take a howitzer with them. The remaining platoon would usually not displace untill the first was mission ready in its new position.
Under ideal conditions, such as on hard clear desert or grassland surface a battery or platoon could displace in as little as five minutes, less in a emergency. On difficult ground like the rice paddys of Korea, the snow filled woods of Minninnesota, or in mud ten minutes or more is closer.
Quote
Reply
FD
7/18/2007 3:37:28 PM
Thanks for the info. I was wondering if it took a long time or not.
Quote
Reply
Carl S
7/18/2007 6:19:38 PM
It can if the battery crew are drilled wrong. Either some slacker thrid world army, or lead by a third rate officer. I've seen & been in a few batterys that were an embarasment. Also on some training days theres no deadline & the commander will slow things down for one or another reason.
Quote
Reply
neutralizer
7/19/2007 5:07:29 AM
You mean there are armies so backward that they aren't digitised and use wire comms?
Like all these things it depends. Obviously larger guns take longer to bring out of action than smaller ones. Other factors are:
The time between 'Prepare to Move' and 'Cease Firing'. This 'window' is when ammo and stores are repacked, less the essentials to remain in action, and cam taken down and packed.
Next is whether towing vehicles are kept alongside the guns or eleswhere and at what stage they are brought up to the guns.
From cease firing to hooked up and loaded, shouldn't take more than a couple of minutes but is does depend on where the towing and ammo vehicles were when 'Cease Firing' was ordered and how much ammo there is to load. Also whether its on pallets, boxed or loose. If on pallets it also depends how good the RTFLs (eg can they load two deep from one side) and their operators are, and to what extent this activity can start before 'Cease Firing'.
Non digitised means traditional orientation by director/aiming circle and dial sight/pantel. 8 Guns can be a bit of a challenge and finding reasonable tactical gun positions for a battery of this size that can orient from a single instrument is not always easy. I'd suggest at least10 minutes in daylight by the time a check bearing has been completed, probably longer if you don't have radio between instrument and guns, but radioless guns positions diasppeared decades ago. Given digital sighs its more like 60 seconds and probably waiting for the CP computer to re-boot! (unless you've got a modern one).
Quote
Reply
FD
7/19/2007 8:06:21 AM
Thanks, I'm looking at the M119A2 105mm the only non-digitized howitzer in the Army inventory. I assmue they still run wire. I don't have an artillery back ground but we were discussing it at work. One of my colleagues said that packing up within two minutes was possible. We were discussing quick firing for the M119A2, where they just pull off the road, setup and fire; then quickly recover. I know the standard is 11 minutes for setup but no recover time was given.
Quote
Reply
FD
7/19/2007 1:11:35 PM
Thanks, I'm looking at the M119A2 105mm the only non-digitized howitzer in the Army inventory. I assmue they still run wire. I don't have an artillery back ground but we were discussing it at work. One of my colleagues said that packing up within two minutes was possible. We were discussing quick firing for the M119A2, where they just pull off the road, setup and fire; then quickly recover. I know the standard is 11 minutes for setup but no recover time was given.
Quote
Reply
Carl S
7/19/2007 7:58:45 PM
I wonder what is defined by "setup time". Time to emplace & lay a M101 battery is eight minutes in my old MCCRES book. There must be other steps included in the 11 minutes.
Unfortunatly my old copy does not include a standard for a emergency 'hip shoot' misson from a road march. I've seen claims from Britsh artillerymen of times as low as 90 seconds to unlimber & lay the cannon. For us, from initial radio order to first shot down range was a bit over five minutes if my dim memory serves. However laying with a section chiefs compass in a unsurveyed position made accuraccy a bit problematic.
Quote
Reply
neutralizer
7/20/2007 3:16:47 AM
First point is it depends whether the barrel is in the A frame or reversed, if the latter add 30-45 sec. Otherwies it should take no more than a minute to be ready to receive line (ie orientation) this is the bottleneck because each gun has to be given its own angle by the director/aiming circle, and this has to be set-up. In quick actions it may be that orientation is done by someone lining up the gun using a prismatic compass 'shot' along the line of each barrel. This is quicker but will still take some minutes for a battery.
Electronic sights as used on L118 by UK and others is much faster, I've read something recently that a UK bty was in action and shooting quicker that an 81mm mortar platoon.
Quote
Reply
Carl S
7/20/2007 7:42:17 AM
Some or many of our battery commanders cut the lay time by using reciprical lay (a laid gun sets another) and with two aiming circles. Carefull prep. by the advance party and the driver/ground guide getting the howitzer poiitioned precisely would reduce the difference between the inital angle & desired angle to a very small error.
Getting back to the quickfire with the M119 its possible the 11 minutes included intial observers message and azimuth of fire/range-elevation computations. My memery is we were expected to get all that done in much less than ten minutes. But, its been 25 years since I did full battery ops with a M101.
Quote
Reply
FD
7/20/2007 8:34:55 AM
Thanks again for the replys. I have another question. What does the wire do? Is it a line connection between field phones?
Quote
Reply
1
2
Latest
News
Most
Read
Most
Commented
Hot
Topics
AIR DEFENSE: Never Enough Air Defense Missiles
SUBMARINES: US Colombia SSBNs Behind Schedule
PROCUREMENT: Neutral Switzerland Upgrades Its Military
PROCUREMENT: Neutral Switzerland Upgrades Its Military
CHINA: China April 2024 Update
SUBMARINES: New Submarines for Norway
WEAPONS: Russia Running Out of Antique Weapons
SOMALIA: Somalia April 2024
ARTILLERY: New Iranian Weapons
INTELLIGENCE: NATO Suspects a Threat
ATTRITION: Russia fires on Ukrainian Fakes
NAVAL AIR: Tritons Assemble
WEAPONS: South Korean Arms Exports to the Middle East
LIBYA: Libya April Update
ARTILLERY: Russia Bombards Ukraine With North Korean Missiles
WARPLANES: South Korea’s Troubled KF-21 Jet Fighter Project
AIR WEAPONS: Drones Dominate Ukrainian Battlefield
SUBMARINES: Ukraine Obtains Anti-Submarine Weapons
MURPHY'S LAW: Nationwide Impact of Ukraine War in Russia
STRATEGIC WEAPONS: American ARRW Missile Tested
SURFACE FORCES : Vasily Bykov class Corvettes
SPECIAL OPERATIONS: Tatar Rebels in Crimea
PROCUREMENT: China Supercharges Military Spending
ARMOR: M1A2SEP3 Tank Paradox
AIR DEFENSE: Russia Seeks Answers
ARTILLERY: HIMARS Prevails Against Russians
ARTILLERY: Chinese-Truck Mounted Artillery
SURFACE FORCES : Zumwalt Class Destroyers Find a Purpose
ARTILLERY: NATO Artillery Shell Shortage
SUBMARINES: Lada Class Submarine Abandoned
Subscribe to Our RSS Feed
Air Defense: Never Enough Air Defense Missiles
Submarines: US Colombia SSBNs Behind Schedule
WARS China: China April 2024 Update
Weapons: Russia Running Out of Antique Weapons
Procurement: Neutral Switzerland Upgrades Its Military
Procurement: Neutral Switzerland Upgrades Its Military
Submarines: New Submarines for Norway
Artillery: New Iranian Weapons
On PointIsrael's Airspace Defense Victory: Credit Reagan's SDI
WARS Somalia: Somalia April 2024
Intelligence: NATO Suspects a Threat
Attrition: Russia fires on Ukrainian Fakes
Naval Air: Tritons Assemble
Weapons: South Korean Arms Exports to the Middle East
Air Weapons: Drones Dominate Ukrainian Battlefield
Artillery: Russia Bombards Ukraine With North Korean Missiles
WEAPONS: Russia Running Out of Antique Weapons
CHINA: China April 2024 Update
SUBMARINES: New Submarines for Norway
WEAPONS: South Korean Arms Exports to the Middle East
NAVAL AIR: Tritons Assemble
ATTRITION: Russia fires on Ukrainian Fakes
INTELLIGENCE: NATO Suspects a Threat
ARTILLERY: New Iranian Weapons
SOMALIA: Somalia April 2024
PROCUREMENT: Neutral Switzerland Upgrades Its Military
PROCUREMENT: Neutral Switzerland Upgrades Its Military
SUBMARINES: US Colombia SSBNs Behind Schedule
AIR DEFENSE: Never Enough Air Defense Missiles
AIR DEFENSE: Where the Patriot Missile Batteries Are
SPECIAL OPERATIONS: Ukrainian Improvised Air-Defense Network
News
How To Make War
Wars Around The World
Austin Bay's On Point
StrategyTalk
Dirty Little Secrets
Features
Al Nofi's CIC
Videos
Photos
Jokes
Community
Military Discussion Boards
Military Jokes
Military Photos
Military Book Reviews
StrategyPage
Account Manager
Login
Feedback
About Us
Search
Advertise With Us
Search