M777

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Shaka of Carthage RE: M777 7/10/2003 7:09:44 PM

Towed 155mm Artillery would be better replaced by the CEASAR system.

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M4A3E2(76)W RE:CEASAR 7/10/2003 7:23:14 PM

I just took a look at CEASAR, WOW! Very cool looking.

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AlbanyRifles RE:CEASAR 7/11/2003 8:44:13 AM

One advantage of M777 is you can slingload it under a Chinook and towed by an LMTV. It is being considered for light, airborne & air assault units. CEASAR doesn't fit that bill.

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Shaka of Carthage RE:CEASAR 7/11/2003 11:57:54 AM

But I can air transport CEASAR on a C-130, if I remember correctly. The advantage of the helio transport is in establishing firebases in areas that can't be reached by other means. In some respects, I think a 120mm mortar could be used in those cases.

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AlbanyRifles RE:CEASAR 7/14/2003 7:15:53 AM

Agree about CEASAR on C-130 but you can't sling load it under a CH-47 or CH-53. You can sling an M777. 120MM Mortar is already used in infantry mortar platoons in light units (they have 120 MM & 81 MM; they use one or the other dependent on mission). The Mortar doesn't have the range (best you can get is around 8.5 - 9.5 KM) while the M777 will handle the entire range of 155MM shells.

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WinsettZ RE:CEASAR 7/14/2003 3:14:25 PM

Both have their advantages and weaknesses. If helicopters are in short supply, then towed artillery will be...useless. For towed arty to live they would need organic helicopter lift. Hmm.

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Shaka of Carthage RE:Towed or Self Propelled? 7/14/2003 4:28:09 PM

It all comes down to towed vs self-propelled. I don't believe there is anyone who would rather have towed than SP. Only restraining factor is the cost. CEASAR gives you SP for a towed (+) cost. Look at the Stryker Brigades. They are talking about using towed artillery. That to me is a mistake. They should have SP. Either the cost or the inability to be transported by C-130 must have ruled against it. I don't now. But a CEASAR option for the artillery would be alot better than a towed. If we do find ourselfs back in a situation where we need towed guns, so they can be airlifted into firebases, take them out of storage, clean them up, and ship them out. But they shouldn't be part of any modern day to&e.

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WinsettZ RE:Towed or Self Propelled? 7/14/2003 4:40:11 PM

It seems more efficient for a stryker brigade to have all SP...since the core of the unit (Stryker, which it's also named after) is going to be C-130ed, might as well C-130 everything. SBCT is supposed to "get there first" and on paper might even arrive before the airlift. As such...all it has is C-130 capability. In situations where mobility is moot (towed), lightweight is not a priority. Towed doesn't seem to support the new mobility doctrine of drive-through-desert-on-FOX-news which is the future. But Caesar might not get through for political reasons. We have the HIMARS, which is a wheeled MRLS with one rocket launching cell instead of two. If possible we might take a HIMARS chassis and attach arty...with modifications. A alternate arty platform is Israel's Rascal...if there are political problems acquiring french stuff, surely there are less, if none at all for Israeli artillery?

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Shaka of Carthage RE:Towed or Self Propelled? 7/14/2003 7:09:42 PM

Agree because of political considerations (ie its a French invention), it won't happen. So reverse engineer the thing and call it MACARTHUR.

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Sam RE:Towed or Self Propelled? I vote Towed 7/14/2003 10:46:03 PM

Towed howitzers have many advantages over SPs. I've worked on both and see towed systems as more flexable. The bigest advantage for a towes system is that if the prime mover eats a RPG , blows a engine, gets 2 flat tires... I unhook the gun and hook it up to another truck in my convoy. If Ceasar or paladin becomes disabled, I've lost a tube for the duration. Towed (M-198) can be airlifted by C-130, CH-47 and CH-53E. The LWTH can be airlifted by CH-46 and MV-22. Allows for arty raids or the ability to bring fire support on long range raids/recons/assaults Mobility isn't an issue. The M109 may be able to cut through the soft sand/big mud lake that the M-198/M923 can't but it darn sure isn't going to fire from there. Fire support on the long drive. Again not an issue. It takes a towed system 7 min to perform a hip shoot vice the 5 for SP. But hip shoots are a last resort emergency practice anyway. Depending on the size of the maneuver element (grunts) there will be more than 1 firing battery in support. 1 in place providing fire support, 1 on the move, and the 3d diging in spades preparing to go hot. A firing btry (6 gun)also has the capability to conduct limited split btry ops.

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