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Subject: SP or Towed for Norway?
Guardsman 7207    8/19/2006 3:12:20 PM
Norway has the old M109, its been in service for decades and badly needs a replacement. It was to be the Pzh2000, but the government backed out in the last minute due to financial reasons. Really screwed over the suppliers, the Dutch who were selling off some off their surplus inventory, but that is another story... Norways situation is this: enourmous territory, difficult terrain, poor road network, lots of bridges, most of whom dont support more than 65 tons(or less), and little or no heavy lift capacity, neither helo's nor fixed wing. Then the questions is: SP or Towed arty? In such a situation,what gives you enough firepower and mobility? Are SP guns always the better choice? Maybe a variant of the Caesar system would do better? Or simply a towed M777 or a very light alternative with the L119?
 
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flamingknives    RE:SP or Towed for Norway?   8/23/2006 3:00:53 PM
I guess it depends what you want artillery for, suppression or destruction. For light and mobile, a lightweight rocket system (HIMARS, LIMAWS(R)) for long range, destructive fires combined with a light gun (L118) in 105mm for screening, defensive and suppressive fires. Perhaps a bit more range would be good for the 105mm, but you're after rate and low cost, and 20 miles or so range still covers a pretty large area.
 
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doggtag       8/25/2006 8:50:08 PM

....But the only 105mm anywhere that can get near 20 miles (32km), is the S.Afrikan G7 LEO, and no one yet seems impressed enough with it to buy one!

...Would make for an interesting modern-day Abbot SP gun (benefit being it carries more rounds than a much more massive 155mm SP gun).

And like was previously mentioned: precision is becoming more favorable than overall blast coverage area: develop a decent 105mm arty PGM ("soft launch" it at lower velocities like those Russian 100mm ATGMs, but maybe rocket boost them for greater range) and you've got something.

 

Argument seems to suggest that 120mm mortars may often lack sufficient range.

And it was suggested about maybe using 120mm as a new artillery caliber since 120mm is NATO standard for tanks...except NATO-standard tank guns are smoothbore, like most mortars are  (only the Chally 1 & 2 have rifled guns, but recently a C2 was trialled with a Rheinmetall smoothie). And I think smoothbore actually may be more favorable for PGMs (less stress on the round because there's no friction to turn a driving band?): Israel's LAHAT and several other projects in the works are already giving us PGMs for 120mm guns... That US BLOS (Beyond Line Of Sight) round we want for the FCS would be an ideal closer-ranged (self defensive?) weapon for an SP gun (otherwise, you can get by with a mortar PGM, many of which have about the same 10-12 km range we anticipate for BLOS).

 

 

...Reason I suggest the S. Afrikan G7 LEO 105 as a fine SP gun: at 30km, it outranges any other tube artillery caliber up through 130mm (excluding 5" PGMs designed for naval guns), and most 122mm class rocket artillery.

But of course, that's with standard long range ammo: I imagine they will try and do VLAPs in 105 also, easily giving it better range than any 39-45 cal 155mm guns (40+km easily, if the 155 VLAP reached a record 75km). But without some type of guidance/control or course-correcting fuze, its accuracy would probably be haneous.

 
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ambush       8/26/2006 11:32:01 AM

Does Norway need to defend Norway or is looking to equipng its forces for Peacekeeping missions elswhere?  Probably both.   From my own experience with its terrain I would recommend  a towed light 105mm-L119/M-119 and 120mm mortars (like Afghanistan extreme high angle fire would be needed in some of that terrain).  Granted a towed 155 would be nice but considering probable available lift assets with weight of gun and weight of ammuntion it could boil down to moving 155s with a few rounds of ammuntion or moving 105s and supplying them with a lot more ammuntion.  On the other end HIMARS and a Caesar type 155 preferably  something like an M777 mated to a HIMARS chasis. Both would provide a good amount of firepower and have great strategic mobility.

 
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Guardsman 7207       9/6/2006 9:52:08 AM
The Swedish FH77 Archer is a very interesting concept, and although not exactly pretty, it looks robust and efficient. Could that be an alternative as a 155mm SP?

Archer picture...

Note that the picture is of the prototype, the final version will also carry a remote-operated weapons station on top of the drivers cabin.


 
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flamingknives       9/6/2006 1:59:51 PM
Out of interest, why do people plump for the L119 rather than the longer-ranged L118?
 
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Yimmy       9/6/2006 2:21:28 PM

Out of interest, why do people plump for the L119 rather than the longer-ranged L118?

Because most people are probably like me, and don't know the difference.

Off the top of my head I would (guess) the difference was the ammunition, with the L118 shooting surplus stock Abot ammunition while L119 having a chamber for new rounds.... but then I doubt I am correct!



 
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Guardsman 7207    L119   9/6/2006 2:28:40 PM
L119 also has updated targeting systems, making it more accurate and inter-operable
 
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flamingknives       9/6/2006 3:33:58 PM
Aha.

The L118 is the British Light Gun, as currently in service. It fires, IIRC, a British-specific round, which I'm pretty sure is separate-loading (charge and shell separate). It has a longer barrel than the L119/M119 and fires a 15 kg shell up to 17 km. It mounts an inertial positioning system for rapid and accurate sighting.

The M119 (it appears that the M119 has a few US-specific modifications) fires NATO standard ammunition out to 15km, although it can reach 19km with rocket-assisted ammunition.  The NATO standard ammunition is derived from the US WW2 era M1 howitzer, so that definately predates the Abbot ammo.

The L119 is, apparently, an L118 configured for NATO-standard ammunition, although I thought that it had a shorter barrel like the M119 too - can't find confirmation for that at the moment though.

If you're using a light gun for suppressive-effect missions, I would have thought that ammo as dumb (and therefore as cheap) as possible was the way to go.
 
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ArtyEngineer       9/6/2006 3:44:53 PM

L119 also has updated targeting systems, making it more accurate and inter-operable


Thats not quite correct, the M119 as its known in US service is still equipped with a Glass and Iron Optical fire Control System consisting of an M184 Mount (I believe) and an M137 Panoramic telescope (Pantel).  Now while this is a very good fire control system it relies on a human eye centering bubbles and lining up reticles with aiming points both to initially lay the weapon and to set deflection and quadrant on receipt of fire orders.  This can be a major source of error in the weapon system, regardless of how accurate and well aligned the actual equipment is.
 
The L118's in British service have by know all been fitted with a Digital Fire Control System called LINAPS, the heart of which is a combined Inertial Navigation and GPS unit.  This gives locational and pointing data for the tube to an accuracy of < 1 mils (When correctly aligned) and doesnt rely at all of the ancient and secret art of "Bubbleology". 
 
Ill take a digital equipped L118 over an optical equipped M119 any day of the week.
 
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Yimmy       9/6/2006 4:42:04 PM
Cool, so I wasn't toof ar out with my British specific ammunition guess.


 
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