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Subject: Artillery for Light Troops
Thomas    6/11/2003 5:24:12 AM
On the infantry board, there is a discussion of the future of light infantry. On the armour board there is a discussion of the future (if any) of the Light tank. To complement these discussion in the spirit of combined arms: What sort of artillery should go with Light troops. It should be airportable. It should be "resupplyable". It should be able to operate under the conditions of the Light Infantry. Any thoughts?
 
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Nichevo    RE:Finally   10/24/2004 10:49:58 PM
I'm very interested to know what is doing this right now. My plan embodies a) a smart seeker/fuze in b) the cheapest possible launch platform. Who is doing disposable launchers?
 
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gf0012-aust    RE:Finally   10/25/2004 1:39:25 AM
I think there is some merit in your proposal, so comments I offered were in the spirit of "sanity checking" - which is what will happen if you attempt to go to a formal proposal stage. The issue of remote launchers - even though the human or trigger interface is miles/km away will depend on what sensor suite is trawling around either electronically or "upstairs". eg battlefield surveillance drones fitted with a variation of MAD will be able to pick up "foreign" objects in a battlefield - the only issue then is the Force Commanders choice of whether or how to engage. I actually see more merit in what you suggest as a gatekeeper system rather than a shoot and skoot opportunity - but thats just IMHO.
 
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B.Smitty    RE:Finally - Nichevo   10/25/2004 9:10:08 AM
Nichevo wrote: "I'm very interested to know what is doing this right now. My plan embodies a) a smart seeker/fuze in b) the cheapest possible launch platform. Who is doing disposable launchers" Here are my problems with the disposable mortar idea: 1. It's going to require a significant rocket-assist to get any useful range. IMHO, you might as well forego the mortar aspect entirely and just use a VLS missile. This would mean your launch tube wouldn't have to be strong (heavy) enough to survive a mortar charge. It would only have to be strong enough to survive the VLS boost (what the Javelin tube does now). 2. It's going to cost significantly more per shot than an unguided mortar round - probably on the order of thousands of dollars per round, maybe up to the low tens of thousands depending on the ultimate form of guidance. This precludes the use of cheap unguided munitions for illumination, smoke, area HE fire, etc., and makes it unsuitable for a mortar replacement. 3. Since it still could have significant recoil, you probably wouldn't want to fire them from the bed of a Hummer. A soft-launch VLS missile, OTOH, could be fired from a vehicle. Really, the difference between our approaches is just one of degree. My plan acknowledges that you basically have to build a missile, with a rocket & guidance, to make the disposable thing work, and discards any pretense of being a mortar.
 
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gf0012-aust    Finally - B.Smitty   10/25/2004 11:47:00 AM
I agree, in effect the best way out is to have a man portable "all-up" cannister and changeable rounds.
 
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Rainmaker-55    RE:Finally - ??????   10/26/2004 4:54:37 PM
IMHO, you haven't come up with a replacement for howitzer artillery, but for mortars. I also think you have drifted so far into left field, that you're now up in the stands next to the hot dog and peanut vendors. I most definitely don't have a better idea, but again, IMHO, I do not think this is a feasible concept.
 
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french stratege    doggtag :ATVs (quad bikes) and mortars   10/26/2004 5:21:24 PM
French use their 120 mm rifled mortar (greater accuracy) with submunition or PGM (soon) shells.Its range is up to 17 km! They are towed by a quad also for paratroopers.Evolution will use also Polyphem fiber optic guided long range missile to complement it.
 
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B.Smitty    RE:doggtag :ATVs (quad bikes) and mortars   10/26/2004 8:40:58 PM
french stratege wrote: "French use their 120 mm rifled mortar (greater accuracy) with submunition or PGM (soon) shells.Its range is up to 17 km!" The USMC is looking at a variant for the EFSS, IIRC.
 
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gf0012-aust    RE:Finally - ??????   10/26/2004 11:14:28 PM
[IMHO, you haven't come up with a replacement for howitzer artillery, but for mortars.] True, I did end up focussing on the shoot and scoot side of it, but in defence of my responses, I was under the impression that thats what Nichevo was pursuing. ;) I kind of forgot the arty part of the original thread.
 
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doggtag    Just the tip of the proverbial iceberg...   10/27/2004 1:39:18 AM
Where this debate seems heading: current and projected mortar-launched PGMs are offering superb precision, range, and payload capabilities that are approaching heavier artillery. If we look at the current crop of aircraft ordnance, today's air-launched PGMs are so vastly different and superior to WW2-era "dumb bombs". It is only logical that we see performance increases in mortar and artillery as well. The greatest factor has been that the munition needs to be launch-safe: it must survive very-high-G forces at propellant ignition. But certainly, it would be quite possible (within 5-10 years) to develop an 81-120mm mortar round with range exceeding current 105mm artillery (minus the LEO gun) that can have enhanced propulsion, warhead lethality, and precision guidance. Considering that the majority of mortar and artillery ammunition are little more than modern-production "dumb bomb equivalents" (differing little from their counterparts of 40-60 years' ago), we will certainly see improvements in these projectiles just as we have seen vast improvements from the air-launched dumb bombs and rockets over the last half century. Here's your "artillery for light troops" of the future: a 300-500mm long (think Nerf football with tailfins), small rocket powered munition with a microelectronic programmable guidance section with whatever GPS-follow-on receiver and control system: this can be hand-tossed like a grenade (in smallest form), rifle-fired to greater ranges with little adaptation, or deployed (larger versions) in veryically-oriented angles along an engagement zone/perimeter. Explosives technologies available when the electronics for this round exist will enable near-105mm lethality in rounds that weigh half the weight. An ideal pinpoint guidance system would have the camera in the munition's nose slaved to a soldier's helmet-mounted display (or linked to a console miles away) and connected by secure microburst datalink. Therefore, scores of these could be spread around a defensive perimeter on a small, disposable spike/spigot, and controlled individually if necessary to pinpoint a target up to a few miles away (depending on the size.) Basically, think "Follow-On To NETFIRES" for the US "Army After Army After Next" of 30+ years' out Certainly it sounds fanciful. But try explaining the current weapons' capabilities to a grunt back in WW2 and you'll get the same "what you been smoking?" look from him as well. .
 
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ArtilleryMan    RE:Artillery for Light Troops -    10/29/2004 11:36:10 AM
"...I'm assuming the new M777 (since I find it unlikely that a towed piece will have a non-people powered ramming system), the round will be carried by two people on a metal tray, in a horizontal position, to the breech..." You are right the ammo for the M777 will be hand carried and rammed. However, it will not be carried to the breech it will be carried to a loading tray on the howitzer. A valve will be exercised to bring the loading tray to the breech, and then the ammo will be rammed into the breech.
 
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