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Subject: 120mm mortar or 105mm arty?
Goknub    9/26/2002 12:04:33 AM
Thinking out loud, should Australia ditch the 105s and rely on 120mm mortars instead? For long range work the 155mm arty is best and for shorter distances the lighter weight of the 120mm would be an advantage over the 105s.
 
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erifnogarddloc    RE:Do it right ... 155mm Mortar   9/3/2003 4:48:14 AM
mortat and gun ammo are vastly diffrent mortars pack mor he as they are thin walled bombs not thick skined pro-joe's ( lower pressure in a mortar that a gun and less gee's in the tube. so mortars thow less accurate and shoter ranged pack mor bang for the pound
 
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erifnogarddloc    RE:120mm mortar or 105mm arty?   9/3/2003 4:56:48 AM
COST!!! MORTAR ROUNDS ARE INCREADIBLY CHEEP AND EXPENDABLE , FIRE FOR EFFECT!
 
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palladin    RE:Do it right ... 155mm Mortar   10/28/2003 6:06:49 PM
What you are missing is the consideration of the difference of internal ballistics between a mortar and a howitzer. The extreme chamber pressure of artillery requires shells that can withstand the pressure of the propellant gasses without transfering the gasses to the filler of the shell and are therefore are very stout at the boat tail. Mortar bombs, on the other hand, don't experience the same pressure during propellant burn and are very thin. Ironically, mortar bombs have a higher mass fraction of weight of explosive filler to total weight which means that pound for pound, mortar rounds are more energic upon detonatation than artillery rounds. Bottom line: if you fire a mortar out of an artillery tube using artillery propellant you get an in-bore premature detonation: not recommended.
 
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macawman    RE:120mm mortar or 105mm arty?   10/28/2003 10:13:55 PM
If a 120mm mortar can defeat the top cover of any of todays MBTs, why would the infantry opt for anything else in the direct fire support role? am I wrong about this supposed capability?
 
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palladin    RE:120mm mortar or 105mm arty?   10/29/2003 7:30:13 PM
Couple of things, a 120MM HE mortar will not penetrate any armor. If you get a direct hit (unlikely) it will proabaly strip away the tanks antennas and some optics, but it won't provide a mobility or casostrophic kill. You need a chemical energy round (shaped charge) or a kenetic energy round like the 120mm smooth bore that that M-1s shoots in order to penetrate armor. Another thing, mortars aren't direct fire weapons, they are indirect fire weapons; the mortar gunner does not typically see his target. He relies on forward observers.
 
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Horsesoldier    RE:120mm mortar or 105mm arty?   10/29/2003 7:39:18 PM
During the US Army tests of the Swedish STRIX 120mm mortar round (smart top attack weapon), the mortar bombs tended to penetrate both the roof and belly of target tanks (M48s and M60s), before detonating underneath the tank. Solid, no questions asked, catastrophic kills. The US opted not to by the STRIX, but is developing their own 120mm fire and forget top-attack round with comparable abilities. I think projected fielding is somewhere in the 2008-2012 time frame these days.
 
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bombard    RE:120mm mortar or 105mm arty?   10/30/2003 8:21:29 AM
So... Whats the answer? In ireland, we train our reserves on legacy 105, but use 120mortar, 81mm mortar as well as 60mm mortar on armoured cars. I never worked out why they put a mortar on a armoured car, and if they did, why only a 60mm?
 
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palladin    RE:120mm mortar or 105mm arty?   10/30/2003 7:08:50 PM
The smart mortar that the US is developing is called PGMM (Precision Guided Mortar Munition). The guidance is SAL (Semi-active laser) with a 12o MM shaped charge warhead, it will defeat the top armor of a tank. The requirement should be approved shortly and the winner of the competition should be announced with in a few weeks.
 
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macawman    120mm smart mortar    10/30/2003 8:44:27 PM
>>>The smart mortar that the US is developing is called PGMM (Precision Guided Mortar Munition). The guidance is SAL (Semi-active laser) with a 12o MM shaped charge warhead, it will defeat the top armor of a tank.<<< With this capability all a smart mortar needs is a digital or laser tie in to an overhead targeting system. The only advantage then that the 105mm would have would be greater range, but the 105mm can NOT defeat the frontal armor of current MBTs.
 
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palladin    RE:120mm smart mortar    10/31/2003 4:00:13 PM
I think you'll find that there is a plethora of tank killing systems on the battlefield. While any single system has advantages and disadvantages, artillery is a very flexible system with a variety of shell/fuze combinations that make it very usefull. Notwithstanding guided projectiles, the biggest advantage that arillery has over mortars is range and accuracy; the two most important qualities of indirect fire support. While mortars and artillery will/can fire PGMs (precidion guided munitions), the great majority of ammuntion they fire are ballistic (dumb) ammo. Ballistic ammo comes in the form of HE (high explosive), WP (white phorphorous), smoke, illumination, DPICM (dual purpose improved conventional munitions and self-defense rounds like Bee Hive. All things being equal, you need mortars and artillery to engage the entire spectrum of targets on the battlefield.
 
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