Guided sniper bullets. How far is it?

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wkwillis anti body armor round 6/22/2004 10:15:16 AM

Body armor is cheap and getting cheaper. You can use a fast, heavy, kinetic kill device (a lead slug), or an squash head explosive device, or a shaped charge, or a toxic warhead. All of these require very heavy weapons to kill somebody because they need high velocity for low dispersion line of sight use. A lobbed projectile with chip controlled piezo deflectors would enable you to build a less than ten pound weapon that will go through any armor that is man portable. It wouldn't be line of sight, but so what? You just point it and it will kill whatever is in it's sights. Think of a 25 mm recoiless sniper rifle that can go through an inch of steel using a heat charge, or smash in someone's chest using squash head, or explode with toxic fragments at one meter. If you want to play nice, say, put some of that superslippery pink foam in that last one. The guy is blinded, slippery, stinky, and glows in the dark, all at once. Embarassing but nonlethal. The perfect anti suicide-by-cop weapon.

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doggtag RE:anti body armor round 6/22/2004 12:49:29 PM

a good proposal, wkwillis. These mini guided devices would also provide an effective police weapon: the perfect covert weapon in a hostage stand-off would be a innocent-looking ant, butterfly, or even honeybee device that could be released and target any uncooperative bad guys. As far as the guided foam bullet you mention: if it could be some kind of persistent marking dye that could be sensor tracked, then you wouldn't necessarily need mega-police chases to apprehend a felon: the bank he robs just launches a robobug or micro missile to non-lethally tag him, and the sensor grid throughout the city tracks him, if in itself it doesn't "sting" him without a potent knock-out agent. It certainly sounds like some scifi story where your every move can be tracked ( a Gattica meets Minority Report type scenario...systems are embedded all over the metropolis that can be queued up to track a person's every move). Since it would be very difficult to get the populace to accept being "branded" like cattle with an implanted and traceable ID tag, perhaps instead biomechanical seeker bugs that are programmed to patrol your known routes and pursue your genetic or thermal signature....

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blacksmith RE:anti body armor round 6/22/2004 8:37:58 PM

Is there a problem with suicide by cop? Aside from the wear and tear on cops.

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wkwillis RE:anti body armor round 6/23/2004 2:22:01 AM

The wear and tear on cops is problem enough. Why do they have to make it so dramatic? Why not just jump off a tall building. It spoils the janitor's day, of course, but it doesn't get him investigated and shunned. Cops commit enough crimes we don't have to bust them for ones that they don't commit. Suicide by cop is morally wrong.

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Strangelove Suicide By Cop 6/23/2004 3:27:45 AM

I can't really separate out the "wear and tear on the police officer" from this issue, and I too find it immoral. Besides the w&t issue, which is big, the fact that the suicider must force the officer to bring force to bear means he must apparently be willing to use lethal force on the officer or another. Suicide by these means causes officers to second-guess whether or not the perp is genuine or acting, which degrades officer performance and places themselves and their charges (read, everyone else) in danger. I believe a person has the right to choose to end their own life, but not trick or force another into doing it for them.

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ilpars RE:Suicide By Cop 6/23/2004 3:38:09 AM

Suicide is a sin in many religions. Maybe they are trying to find a loop-hole not to be sinner. Of course trying to fool the God, is a foolish thing to do.

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Strangelove RE:Suicide By Cop 6/23/2004 3:56:19 AM

the insurance company and the surviving family members I think are the more likely targets of the deception, but I agree that suicide by cop would be unlikely to fool a jury, much less an omnicient being.

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Strangelove Guided bullets. How far is it? IT'S HERE! 6/23/2004 4:05:05 AM

The following website from military.com has the skinny on a new lowcost guided missle intended for soft targets ranged 2 miles, which is about twice the effective range sited for the new .408 sniper rounds by ChayTac. They claim you can learn the thing in 15 minutes. link

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doggtag RE:Guided bullets. How far is it? IT'S HERE! 6/23/2004 11:29:19 AM

can we please get a working link for that? thx.,

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ilpars RE:Guided bullets. How far is it? IT'S HERE! 6/23/2004 11:50:04 AM

It is no wonder the link is not working. The link is directing to a hotmail account.

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Strangelove Working Link, pasted article for SPIKE missle 6/24/2004 6:08:45 PM

Sorry about that, I tested it when I posted it, and it seemed fine, then. Here it the address, cut and pasted: (if it still does not work, I pasted the whole article from military.com to this message) link MIGHTY MITE: The 25-Inch SPIKE Missile -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Email this page to friends [Have opinions on this article or equipment? Go to the Discussion Forum to sound off.] Man-portable power: the SPIKE missile. Size isn't everything - just ask the Naval Air Warfare Center, which is successfully testing the SPIKE missile, the smallest fire-and-forget missile around. The SPIKE missile - all 5.3 pounds, 25 inches of it - is proof of big things in small packages. This man-portable missile is currently the world's smallest image-guided, fire-and-forget missile. Its killer feature is a fiber optic data link guidance system which sends commands to the missile from the launch system. In other words, the gunner can maintain tracking and update aim points while the missile is in flight, switching targets in mid-flight if necessary. This allows the gunner to attack hidden targets, update or switch to higher value targets after launch, abort in case of friendly fire, and carry out surveillance and damage assessment. SPIKE can be installed on a range of platforms used to engage tanks, armored vehicles, hardened shelters and low flying slow targets such as helicopters. SPIKE Missile: Killer Features Range: 2.5 km ("Gill" version) Versatility: The missile can be adapted to naval, aerial, and land platforms. The Warhead Seeker: electro-optical (TV) guidance enables tracking as well as pinpoint target acquisition. The Gill's fiber-optic communcations system also enables intelligence collection and the ability to seek hidden targets, and prevents firing against targets which have been previously destroyed. All-Weather Capability: The missile operates in all weather conditions and in nocturnal scenarios. Tandem (Double) Warhead: Allows for increased penetration, especially against reactive armor, and enables the second warhead to penetrate the target. Fire and Forget Capability: Automatic target guidance. Fire and Optic Capabilities: Can receive updated target information and to switch between targets during a flight. Lightweight: A soldier can carry up to two missiles on his back. More Ordnance Equipment Guide On May 26, 2004, in the California desert, under a glaring mid-morning sun, SPIKE-accomplished its first controlled flights. In three test flights totaling slightly less than 60 seconds, the diminutive missile successfully demonstrated more than a dozen critical functions. "This paves the way for self-guided flight tests in 2004," said China Lake engineer Steve Felix, the SPIKE project manager. Man-Portable Power Originally conceived as a man-portable weapon for Marines and Navy special operations groups, which have supported the weapon's development, SPIKE fills a critical niche for a low-cost, lightweight guided weapon for U.S. ground forces. The system could be a safer, more accurate alternative to rocket propelled grenades (RPGs), and a complement to the man-portable Javelin anti-tank missile. RPGs are unguided and have a range of only a few hundred yards; SPIKE can effectively engage soft targets at ranges up to two miles. And while a Javelin missile costs about $75,000, a SPIKE missile is expected to cost only about $4,000, while the SPIKE launcher costs $6,000 (compared to the Javelin launcher cost of $125,000). Only 15 minutes of training are required to operate the SPIKE. Its light weight and low cost make it suitable for wide distribution among front-line units and cost effective even against low-value targets. SPIKE's potential applications go beyond ground combat. It is a realistic armament choice for tactical unmanned aerial vehicles as well as a force-protection weapon to defend surface ships from small-boat swarms and light aircraft. In all three test flights on May 26, SPIKE's reduced-smoke motor propelled the missile from the launcher with barely a visible wisp of smoke. The missile accelerated to 600 miles per hour in under 1.5 seconds. At a predetermined time, the guidance section commanded several pre-programmed pitch, yaw, and roll maneuvers. On the move: The man-portable SPIKE missile is test-fired. "This was a 'walk before you run' approach," added Felix. "The first and third flights did 4-g maneuvers, the second flight 6-gs. Future test flights will work toward the system's maneuverability limits." Warrior input has driven every step of the design and engineering process. "SPIKE is an 80% solution," explained Felix, who conceived the idea for the weapon. "It's not designed for every threat on the battlefield. But it is extremely lethal against a broad cross section of mobile targets and could be available to U.S. forces within 24 months from receipt of funding. SPIKE is a highly effective and low-cost solution, and it's needed by our warfighters today." The Skinny SPIKE has been under development at Naval Air Warfare Center Weapons Division China Lake by a small government/industry development team of interdisciplinary experts from China Lake, DRS Technology, and ATK Thiokol. Sverdrup Naval Systems Group provided additional support. The "guts" of the SPIKE Missile. SPIKE Missile: Specifications Effective range 200 - 2,500 meters Weight (Missile in canister) 13 kg Weight (Firing post) 9 kg Weight (Battery) 1 kg Weight (Tripod) 3 kg Total System Weight 26 kg Operation Fire and Forget Fire, Observe & Update (optional) Seeker Electro Optical (CCD, IR or Dual CCD/IIR) Shelf life 20 years Wooden round 10 years maintenance free Ready to fire Less than 30 seconds Reload time Less than 15 seconds Must-Have Gear ALL-WEATHER TACTICAL FIELD BOOK Tough book features 160 pages of water resistant, non-glare, camo tinted paper. Built to go anywhere, rain or snow, jungle or desert. The SPIKE Family, as developed by Rafael (based in Haifa, Israel), consists of missiles suited for several platforms, multiple ranges and a variety of targets. The missiles in this family have sophisticated electro-optic CCD or IR sensors for operation day and night and in adverse weather conditions and a tandem warhead. The missiles feature two trajectory modes: - The "low trajectory" mode: The missile flies close to ground level and makes a direct attack on the target. This type of attack is ideal for close range and in urban locations. - The "lofted trajectory" mode: The missile climbs high above the ground and then "dives" onto the target. This attack is targeted for armored vehicles, which are more vulnerable to attacks from the top. The SPIKE Family includes the following missile types: Designation Max. Range Application SPIKE-SR 800m Infantry SPIKE-MR (Gill) 2,500m Infantry and Special Forces SPIKE-LR 4,000m Infantry, Light Combat Vehicles SPIKE-ER (NTD) 8,000m Infantry, LCV, Helicopters

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doggtag Another non-Working Link... 6/24/2004 6:57:52 PM

...links out of an email account don't work on here, sorry Strangelove. But thanks anyway for providing us a full post of the article. I remember reading a snippit from Popular Mechanics a while back. The website Army Technology has an article up also: link (the MR version being referred to by Israel as Gill). This is the bandwagon I have been on for about a decade now: precision guidance electronics are getting smaller, and weapon systems will follow suit. The "kit" of a frontline soldier 20 years from now will be considerably different than that of current ops: each man will be his own anti-armor and fire support contingent with a handful of small guided rockets (or mini-missiles, whichever name you prefer) at his disposal..

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Ehran RE:Another non-Working Link... 6/24/2004 10:46:46 PM

if you subscribe to military.com they send you a newsletter about new toys periodically. i think that's where the writeup came from.

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doggtag RE:Another non-Working Link... 6/25/2004 4:46:41 AM

...you can sign up at Jane's and get the latest snippits (for free!)in your email, too: but its just enough info to whet you appetite, unless you got serious cash for a full subscription..

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Strangelove Spike Missle 6/29/2004 10:32:47 PM

Sorry about the bad links on this, and yes, it was sent to my hotmail account from Military.com. Although this isn't exactly a sniper round, and it costs a lot for a bullet, it is still relatively inexpensive and would provide infantry with an excellent anti- light armor and soft target weapon. The guidance package may mean that even lowly 'marksmen' could accurately strike a target at ranges better than a conventional sniper.

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