like the new MSF topic

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Horthy RE:like the new MSF topic 8/31/2002 11:11:28 AM

I think Verhoeven let's the MI wear Wehrmacht style uniforms on purpose. This shows that he not only read and understands Heinlein's book, but that he also has an opinion on them. He saw correctly, that Heinlein propagates a society in Starship Troopers, that has many parallels to Nazi-Germany, a fact for which he has been much critisized, in my opinion correctly. Still, I liked the book inasmauch as it is a great work of military science fiction. The film does not focus on this, but I like how it portrays the political side. Had Verhoeven just filmed the book as it was, it would be a right-wing propaganda movie. As it is, it's the parody of one. I especially liked the mass scenes reminiscent of Leni Rieffenstahl.

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Crutch RE:like the new MSF topic 8/31/2002 2:08:08 PM

Please define the 'Nazi' parallels that you see so clearly in the book. The ST society exists because there are members of the society believe that it is worth putting their bodies on the line for it. There isnt any conscription (the military was only the small the book focused on). Punishment for crime may seem draconian to us - but they could walk the parks freely at night. I think Mr. Verhoeven's sole point was military = bad. I would like to hear any comment by Mr Dale Dye ( the military consultant for the film) ex marine.

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Sentinel RE:like the new MSF topic 8/31/2002 2:19:35 PM

Starship Troopers was a big disappointment in the theater. That said, I liked Clancy Brown as the DI and that was about it. They could have at least made the armor more like it was described in the book. And where were the Skinnys? Just Bugs. The uniforms did have a Wehrmacht look to them. Verhoeven usually makes movies that make you think i.e. "Flesh & Blood", "RoboCop". ST just blew chunks.

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bsl RE:like the new MSF topic 8/31/2002 8:14:29 PM

"Please define the 'Nazi' parallels that you see so clearly in the book." i *don't* see that book as in any way suggesting or supporting fascism. But, if you were from a neighbor of Germany and had any familiarity with the history of the 1920s and 1930s, you might well read the brief background Heinlein wrote for the society of his novel as a parallel to that era. Compare the passage of how veterans had banded together at a time of social disintegration to the Beer Hall Putsch, etc.. It's not an irrational parallel. Heinlein was not historically ignorant. He came of age in that era. OTOH, it's almost always a mistake to believe that Heinlein wrote proposals for social changes. He consciously chose in many instances to create new societies as backgrounds to his stories. Didn't mean he "believed" in them or intended *anyone* else to. In fact, the book he published right after ST was STRANGER IN A STRANGE LAND, and he no more meant *that* society to be taken seriously or the book to be a "guide" to anything than he did STARTSHIP TROOPERS. People made a lot of stupid mistakes about what Heinlein "meant" or "believed" by reading his stories. The letters published after his death as well as the reports of people who knew him agree than he always said he was writing fiction and never intended people to read his stories as blueprints for life. One thing which mademany of his stories so convincing was that he was a meticulous researcher and worked out the backgrounds for his stories with great care. In the case of ST, he had his own background as an Annapolis graduate to draw upon, and he seems to have been informed of a lot of the research the military was doing in the 50s with regard to military technology.

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pragmatist RE:like the new MSF topic - to Horthy 9/6/2002 11:00:26 PM

Horthy opined: "He [Verhoeven] saw correctly, that Heinlein propagates a society in Starship Troopers, that has many parallels to Nazi-Germany ..." What parallels? That both societies had German Speakers? Only an academic type could read ST and say its' society in ANY way parallels Nazi Germany. For example, the Nazi's exterminated those who had physical disabilities. Heinlein's society strove to extend them every right, including the privilege to serve in the military. And by so doing, gain full citizenship. The physically would be allowed "to count the fuzz on catapillars" if thats all they were capable of doing. And the MI recruiter did his bit without prothestics. Nazi propaganda NEVER allowed GERMAN casualty photos. Instead of repeating the pablum that is mouthed by the deconstructionists, give us some examples.

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mike_golf RE:like the new MSF topic & ST 1/21/2004 4:00:15 PM

For those who either have never read the book (Starship Troopers), or have only seen the movie, or really didn't get what the book was driving at, I started a new thread on this topic. It is amazing to me that so many people think ST is fascist or promotes fascism. If anything it does the opposite. Here's the link to the thread: link

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