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Subject: Alternative Armies
TrustButVerify    3/18/2008 1:21:01 PM
I recall a fun little cyberpunk story by Bruce Sterling ("Mozart In Mirrorshades," 1985) in which near-future corporations have taken to tapping the resources of alternate timelines for fun and profit- and this includes manpower. This leads to some entertaining mashups, such as Roman legionaries as private security for a petroleum operation in 18th century Austria, commandos drawn from the ranks of Genghis Khan, and so forth.
So here's the thread starter: Assume you're responsible for recruiting and staffing one of these crosstime mercenary outfits. Where will you go for your manpower?
 
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TrustButVerify    By the way,   3/18/2008 1:23:49 PM
 
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TrustButVerify    By the way,   3/18/2008 1:24:37 PM
You can read the original story here. (PDF format)
 
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Treadgar       3/18/2008 8:15:31 PM
They're not exactly what you'd call mercenaries, but I'd go for some Trojans. The Numentides were pretty tough on the Romans, they'd make good shock troops. And I've always been fascinated by the German Army, it was a hard fight against them. I can think of more, but I'd like to see what others say.

Treadgar
 
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Ehran       3/19/2008 12:26:05 PM
really need a bit more information before you can answer this.  primarily when/where are the troops going to be posted.
 
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TrustButVerify       3/19/2008 1:58:30 PM
Given the nature of the undertaking, they might be deployed anywhere/anywhen, although I think your paratime corporation would probably decide to steer clear of the 19th and 20th centuries. Let's say, arbitrarily, two locations- southern France, circa 1500 AD, and the Huai river region of China circa 1000 AD. Mission in both cases is to provide security for the establishment of an initial base and logistical support area in preparation for sustained operations. This would be similar to setting up a FOB.
Equipment is up to you- Bronze Age to 21st century. If you want to put a company of Serbian cavalry in UH-60s, for instance, have at it and be prepared to justify the expense to your superior.

 
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ker       4/13/2008 8:54:04 PM
I think Alexander the Great need twelve Army Special forces personel from 2008. Can you say  "peace in our time".
 
 
Other wise Golden Hord mounted archers on a American Cival war battle feild interests me.
 
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Ehran       4/14/2008 3:43:18 PM
probably doesn't matter a lot who the guys are if you run them through your training program a la the british army of say 1900 or so.  give them lee enfields and some lewis guns along with some of the little french 75 arty pieces and you should be good to go against most any historical army in a standup fight.
 
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Ehran       4/14/2008 3:47:32 PM

Other wise Golden Hord mounted archers on a American Cival war battle feild interests me.

the rifled muskets would give the civil war guys a pretty convincing edge until the Horde closed the range and brought their rof advantage into play.  think i'd bet on the civil war troops if i had to put money on it.

 
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flamingknives       4/14/2008 5:44:32 PM
Was it Napoleon who opined that God fights on the side with the most artillery? Considering that the US Civil War army would have some artillery, and the Golden Horde would have none, the balance is most certainly against the horse archers. I'd hate to think what the effect of grapeshot or shrapnel would be. It would be a bit of a surprise the first time


 
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andyf       4/15/2008 4:06:04 PM
theres a series of books by willian r forschen that basically deals with exacty that scenario.
only the mongol archers are 7' tall cannibals
pretty good
 
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Ehran       4/16/2008 12:23:09 PM

theres a series of books by willian r forschen that basically deals with exacty that scenario.

only the mongol archers are 7' tall cannibals

pretty good


more like 8-9' tall.  the lost regiment series runs to 6 or 7 books.

 
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TrustButVerify       4/24/2008 7:38:46 AM

probably doesn't matter a lot who the guys are if you run them through your training program a la the british army of say 1900 or so.  give them lee enfields and some lewis guns along with some of the little french 75 arty pieces and you should be good to go against most any historical army in a standup fight.


I love this answer. Turn-of-the-century British riflemen would be perfect, right down to their field kit. The Lee-Enfield, 75s, and Lewis guns should hit the sweet spot for reliability vs. effectiveness. All I would add is Vickers guns for fixed emplacements.
 
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Jeff_F_F       4/26/2008 12:30:21 AM
The redcoats were a terrific industrial army, but that paradigm has limitations as well as advantages. It depends on the fighting power of the military unit, which was fine if you were lined up against another European army on a fairly level plain, but didn't work so well against insurgents in woods and swamps, because that kind of mission requires a high level of individual initiative at every level. That kind of initiative can really only be developed by natural culture. If you want mobile warfare with maximum coordination at every level and individual initiative, the Mongols were the best that there probably has ever been, because their culture was completely designed around the needs of a mobile army. They coorinated moving armies over hundreds of kilometers using horse messengers better than a lot of modern armies would using radios.
 
Would that be enough to make the difference against nearly a millenia of technological advance? Heck no. But consider what you'd get if you gave Mongols full access to the armaments available toward the end of the American Civil War and then put them up against any military of the day once they had been properly trained in the technical aspects of their use. Mongols were already experts in the use of artillery and engineering in the context of mobile warfare, so that would not be a challenge. The tactics they used with catapults could be adapted to cannons fairly quickly. Once they had mastered marksmanship with repeating rifles, I have no doubt that they would employ them with the same brilliance which they employed their bows.
 
At the same time using Mongols for security work doesn't make lot of sense. I kinda feel like the best ancient army for that mission would be Romans.
 
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ker       4/26/2008 4:35:06 PM




Other wise Golden Hord mounted archers on a American Civil war battle field interests me.



the rifled muskets would give the civil war guys a pretty convincing edge until the Horde closed the range and brought their rof advantage into play.  think i'd bet on the civil war troops if i had to put money on it.


Yes.  But how about matching them against civil war era calvary with sabers and pistols?  They don't need to attack formed infantry to be useful.

 
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TrustButVerify    Romans   4/30/2008 8:09:51 PM
I agree, the Romans would be a good alternate choice; I prefer to maintain the tech overmatch, but as has already been pointed out there's no reason you can't train them to use firearms. One reason I like the idea of Tommies is that they've got the imperial mindset and a long, proud martial history (while maintaining the appropriate level of arrogance towards other cultures). And Rome clearly had these things too. So- there's my reason for liking the Romans, what are yours?

For mobile operations outside of the wire, I see every reason to prefer the Mongols. Who could argue with a company Mongols in gunships?

 
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