Starship Troopers - Neofascist or not?

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mike_golf RE: Mike _Golf 6/6/2004 4:50:32 PM

Damn, now I have to clean the coffee off my laptop! That's pretty good, I'll have to tell her. I had been meaning to get back to your questions, I just wasn't sure how much detail to give. Dad was drafted in early 41, served as a combat engineer in France, finished the war as a first sergeant. Got out in 45 like many others, went back in the Army in 49. He served in Korea from the breakout from Pusan onwards with 2nd ID. He served tours in Germany, Korea and Fort Bragg before going to Vietnam in 1965 and again in 1968. He retired as a sergeant major. I got my BA from Seattle City University, my concentration was in modern western history, 1929 to the present. I got my MBA at UC, Davis. Politically speaking California is extremely trying, but I must say the electorate is moving back to the center, as evidenced by the election of Schwarzenegger and the extremely low approval rating the legislature currently has. I love the state though, the people, the climate, the ocean and the mountains so close by. And the availability of jobs is hard to argue with, in my industry anyhow. Well, federalism was an excellent attempt by Jefferson, Hamilton, et. al. to try to prevent the tyranny of the majority. I wouldn't mind seeing more state's rights, less central government power myself. But, I think we can trace the decline of federalism to two things. The first is the Civil War, Lincoln had to make the central government powerful to win. The second is the rise, post 1900, of a "legislative judiciary". They had to establish the central government as supreme to enable their legislative activities.

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oregon_x_marine RE: Mike _Golf 6/6/2004 5:50:27 PM

Was your father a combat engineer his entire career? My uncle's were Marines and fought at Gaudalcanal, Tarawa, Okinawa, and one was later recalled for Korea (Inchon, Chosin). Seattle City University? I lived in Seattle from 1988-1993 and am not familiar with that institution. Is it affiliated with another university in Seattle. UC-Davis grad school; well done! I tend to think of California as a lost paradise. It guess it's inevitable when 40 million people move to one state. I would probably move there if I could afford to live in the nicer areas! I think Federalism has a real chance now for the simple fact that the overwhelming majority do not wish to split the nation. I think the average person can now easily see how a bloated and over-centralized Federal government is making things worse, not better. Didn't you post in another section that the Army's Armored and Mech divisions are actually "old-school" versions of heavy cavalry and dragoons? After reading that post I did a little research on British regiments and found these two interesting web sites: link link You have to find some time to give me your opinion of the British regimental system and whether it should be adopted in America.

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mike_golf RE: Mike _Golf 6/6/2004 8:59:10 PM

Hey x_marine, Dad was a combat engineer and infantry. Probably other things too. The military was much looser for NCO's back then, they tended to move around job to job as needed a lot more. I'm pretty sure that Seattle City University is affiliated with City University, which is in New York? I did most of my coursework through U of Maryland, like most soldiers. But I was at Ft Lewis long enough to take the credits I needed through them. About regiments. I spent 12 years in two armored cavalry regiments. The Cav used to work that way, all of the NCO's knew each other. It was fairly similar to the regimental system of the British. I thought the US Army should have really adopted a Regimental system years ago.

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oregon_x_marine RE: Mike _Golf 6/6/2004 11:05:32 PM

Dunnigan suggested that the new brigades will be the basis for a "regimental system." Do you think it should be the BDE or RGT, whith different BN serving in differt locations? I know you're a working man (I've been unemployed since last year) and appreciate all of your answers.

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chemist RE: Mike _Golf 6/7/2004 12:40:30 AM

MG, Your the third UCD alumn I've found on the boards. WTH? Did my undergrad work there. Interesting place and growing wierder by the minute. Sacto wasn't my favorite place in the world(hey sitting atop the central valley isn't all that fun. Delta breezes or no delta breezes.). Plus traffic could down right suck, especially since I wasn't a native and didn't know which streets were one way and how they split. Query that's on topic: Is it possible that Heinlein in both Moon is a Harsh Mistress and Starship Troopers is harkening back to the Athenians and the requirement of civic militarism for a vote? I don't see civic militarism as fascistic. It's just an odd requirement for participation in politics by todays standards. Okay, berate me for being silly..

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mike_golf RE: Mike _Golf - chemist 6/7/2004 1:50:49 AM

I'm not surprised there's a bunch of UCD alums on the board. Nice to meet a fellow CalAggie. Great school, weird town, kinda like Berkeley II basically. I think Heinlein was definitely including Classic Greek political concepts in his books. He was very influenced by the Greeks, much as Pournelle is very influenced by the Romans.

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oregon_x_marine RE: Greeks 6/7/2004 2:26:42 AM

I've started reading Donald Kagan's book on the Pelopenessian War, and to say that the differences between Sparta and Athens are fascinating would be an gross understatement. Athens had universal male sufferage and would literally vote on all important matters, including war. Their rationale was simple; a man ought to have a say whether he goes to war. There were 40,000 Athenian men who were eligible to vote in the assembly, but usually 2-3,000 showed up. Some things never change! On the other hand, Sparta had a mixed constitution - an interesting aside is that the Founding Fathers were very influenced by Sparta although one always reads about Athens' influence on the USA - where all Spartans (the highest caste in Spartan soceity) were members of a mostly powerless assembly (although the assembly had final say on war issues). The Spartan assembly also elected Ephors (magistrates), and he upper class was represented in a special body. Even more interesting was that there were 2 kings who served simultaneously! Pay attention here because there will be a quiz when I finsh the book!!!

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Strangelove RE: Mike _Golf (you say you want a revolution?) 6/7/2004 3:19:52 AM

Mike_Golf: I am largely in agreemtent with your comments: "My solution: term-limits (12 years max in House or Senate), no out of district campaign money, no money from PACS or unions, no primaries, no limit on campaign contributions, total transparency of campaign finances, double the number in the House of Representative, federal balanced budget amendment with line item veto." I feel that the re-election process encourages corruption. Reps (be they senators, presidents, or members of the house) spend much of their careers in politics looking for money. Obviously the people who give them the money expect something in return, and there is really no way around this. What about ONE term in office, which disqualifies a person for ANY federal office for a period of time? In a similar vein, Jefferson called for a revolution every 20 or 25 years in order to maintain liberty. What if we did just that? Every 25 years, starting in 2025, if you are in office, you may fill out your term, and then disqualified from seeking another term for a period of time?

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Strangelove RE: Greeks 6/7/2004 3:31:35 AM

An interesting and largely unknown fact about Athenian democracy was that the money which funded the government and public works projects, like the Parthenon, came from the looting of a treasury established to protect the various city-states in event of another invasion by the Persians. The Athenians managed to politically wrangle moving the Delian League's treasury to Athens, where they spent it to establish and equip their own military, and then proceeded to use that military to continue to extort money from the founding members. The democratic foundations of our modern western tradition leave something to be desired, but frankly shouldn't surprise anyone given the level of corruption and graft which pervades our (and every, as far as I know) government.

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ilpars Athenians 6/7/2004 3:57:30 AM

"There were 40,000 Athenian men who were eligible to vote in the assembly, but usually 2-3,000 showed up. Some things never change!" This is true for the Imperalist period of Athens. At that period many citizens lived at colonies and could not find time to go to Athens to vote. At the time of Marathon battle (490 B.C.), there were only 10,000 citizens. And all were present at when there is an important matter to discuss. Such as what to do against Persian army landing at Marathon. In the end most of the citizens took arms. The citizens who are not able to serve in war armed a slave in its place. So there were aproximately 10,000 Athenian soldiers at Marathon. And about several hundred Plateans (great accomplishment and bravery from such a small city). Persians were not much numereous. Probably 15,000 but 12,000 of them were professional soldiers. What makes the Marathon Battle so important in history is it is a victory by a militia army against a veteran regular army. Hmm. If Starship Troopers affected by Athenian history, than Persians are the aliens.

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