Starship Troopers - Neofascist or not?

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mike_golf RE: Mike_Golf 6/4/2004 12:56:40 AM

Hi x_marine: Ayn Rand - the individual and self-interest is supreme. The ideals of the individual as supreme above all else cannot be abandoned for pragmatism. Heinlein - the individual's rights (subtle but key distinction) take priority over that of the community. The individual owes service to the community, but can never be coerced to provide that service. Heinlein's primary source appears to be Jefferson. Pragmatism, when appropriate, takes priority over ideals. Thus conscription during the Civil War is justified to ensure the survival of the US, for example. A Randite would never agree to this. I was heavily influenced through reading Heinlein, for starters. My original choice of major was *grin* Poli Sci, and I concentrated on the Liberal movement of the 18th century. I also read Rand during the same time period. I was starting to have a hard time reconciling my growing belief that the government has no right to coerce me to do anything and my service in the military. About that time, for probably unconscious reasons, I re-read Starship Troopers. I got interested in what I was reading philosophically. Then I re-read The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. I also was starting to read some essays by J. Neil Schulman. It kind of clicked, but I was having trouble with the absolute self-interest of the Randites, because of my belief in service to community and country. Schulman helped greatly with that, immensely. So, I could be Libertarian in the Heinlein style (Schulman leads, as much as we have a leader, that faction), it fit for me. The best thing about this wing of Libertarianism is the recognition that a truly Libertarian society is unlikely, at best. And that is okay as long as you, the individual, take responsibility for self. My degree concentration is modern western history, 1929 onwards. I do check mises.org and cato.org. If you don't read Cato you should.

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oregon_x_marine RE: Mike_Golf 6/4/2004 2:30:56 AM

CATO is awesome, but, as I posted earlier, I think they miss the boat from time to time. C-SPAN has exposed me to a number of smart Libertarians, and I always love hearing and reading what they think. What prompted me to read ?Starship Troopers? was the National Review?s movie review of the film. I read the review some time after seeing the movie and was quite surprised to learn that the novel had a subtle but important political sub-text. While it was hard to get the film?s co-ed boot camp shower scene out of my mind, I still found the novel surprisingly good. I especially liked reading how the intellectuals failed and the veterans succeeded in building a new civilization. I think the Heinlein school of though is much preferable to Rand?s although admit to thinking that mass democracy is failing ( I?m assuming this is an Randian notion). The issue has haunted me ever since I (partially) read a book by a conservative author about Liberty. The author points out the obvious; liberty and democracy are two different ideas, and a country can truly be democratic yet have very little liberty. ?Starship Troopers? picked at this sensitive intellectual scab and asked the question: is democracy (the way we?re practicing it today) all that its cracked-up to be? I hate the idea of an exclusive aristocracy but am beginning to loath ?modern? man and the cultural narcissism that makes him uncivilized. Although I consider myself a ?new right? (i.e. post WW2) conservative, I am still influenced by the Russell Kirk kind of conservative. In fact I suggest you browse through ?The Portable Conservative Reader? edited by Russell Kirk next trip to the bookstore. Please take the time to read some of the chapter titled ?Capitalism, Socialism and Nihilism,? which is authored by Irving Kristol, so-called father of neo-conservativism and biological father of Bill Kristol (an ?evil? modern neo-con). Kristol has a great intellect but uses it to cut to the point and is easily read and understood. This chapter is actually an excerpt of a book Irving Kristol published in 1978 that is very insightful and directly challenges libertarian ideas. I would be very interested in reading your response to this one article.

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mike_golf RE: Mike_Golf - x_marine 6/5/2004 1:05:47 AM

Hey x_marine, have you read The Moon is a Harsh Mistress? As a poli sci major you really should. Heinlein essentially uses this book as a platform to discuss his vision of the world of today and where it is headed and his vision of what could be. The society built by the ex-prisoners on the moon, and the liberty they have, although they have no democracy, is contrasted closely with the democracy the earth has, although they have no liberty. The book is Orwellian 1984 in fashion, but much more entertaining. The first time I read it I must have been about 12 or 13 at best. I was kinda precocious, my father was a huge sci fi fan, and he let me read anything I wanted to read. I didn't really get what Heinlein was getting at in the deeper storyline, but I was entertained and I learned a lot of science from it. Over the years I re-read it many times. It is truly his libertarian manifesto. He shows us how all the things we believe the government must do for us could be provided through private means, or aren't really necessary. He also shows us how much more individual liberty we would have if the government was not involved in providing all of our daily services like they are today. I originally considered myself a New Republican, I was very influenced by Ronald Reagan, who was governor of California during my youth. As long as Reagan was the philosophical and intellectual driving force behind the Republican Party I was very much in tune with them. It was only as the Bush-Bush-Dole-Gingrich wing of the party rose to power that I truly became disillusioned with the Republican Party. Reagan brought a brief renaissance to the party, a time of limited government, strong defense, defense of individual liberties. You are right about the Randite Libertarians believing mass democracy is failing. But the Heinlein Libertarians do also. I think, if you look around you, it is clear that we are in the bread and circuses phase of our democracy and it is only a matter of time until our beloved Republic transitions to Empire. The question is, where is our Caesar? We are in the grip of the lowest common denominator dictating and the tyranny of the majority and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

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oregon_x_marine RE: Mike_Golf 6/5/2004 2:54:36 AM

I believe we are of the same generation ? I was born in 1962 ? and both intuitively and acutely understand the large chasm between the WW2 generation and contemporary America. My pessimism is largely due to the fact that our generation is the bridge between ?the greatest generation? and ?liberated, contemporary America. ? We witnessed first hand the cultural revolution of the 1970s, where the 1960?s mentality became mainstream. Even more frightening is that today?s youth have the 1960?s generation for parents and grandparents. Soon there will not be anyone under 40 who has had personal contact with ?the greatest generation.? They will have no idea that civil society existed for nearly 200 years without all these federal and state programs; when you debate politics, most people believe society would fall apart without large government! God only knows what is going to happen to us, but one thing is for sure, this election is definitely going to be a watershed event. Reagan is an interesting Republican because he is as much neo-con as conservative. Reagan had conservative instincts, a Truman-esqe foreign policy, but ultimately did nothing to roll back the size and scope of government. I?m sure he just didn?t have the political capital to achieve this. My God, it took nearly all of his political capital just to finish the Cold War. I like and admire G.W. Bush but am saddened by his obvious shortcomings (poor communicator, large increases in non-defense spending, etc.). W doesn?t care that he is not a genius but knows what must be done and does it!! I believe history will see him in a far more positive light than his contemporary critics do. Bush?s basic problem is that he can not get elected as a conservative and must spend tons federal money so people will think he is ?compassionate.? This has been the Republican?s problem since Reagan. If you think the Left is having a tantrum now, just think what they would do if all these governmental programs were scaled back. There would literally be civil strife. I understand your use of the term empire but, nevertheless, gag when I hear it. Charles Krauthammer, one of my favorite pundits, says we are an ?empire of liberty.? I like the sound of this but fear that few in this world are willing to defend or fight for such an empire. The Mensheviks and muslims are taking over Europe, and the Asians can not be counted on to defend such an ?foreign? empire. The USA is suffering from overstretch because there is literally no one else to share the burden with. I don?t have a lot of good answers right now. As a Buckley-esqe conservative, I?m torn between patriotism and a form of liberal-internationalism (rule of law, economic freedom, individual rights, etc). I?m still a traditional (Burkean) conservative because I reject all utopian ideas whether they be political (socialism, the UN) or economic (free trade uber alles). I do know that we must ?recapture the law? from Leftist, but 100 years of leftist judicial activism might be irreparable. Everyone says Heinlein is the best, and I will read ?The Moon is a harsh Mistress? unless you advise otherwise. Currently I?m reading a book on Chesty Puller and then will read Donald Kagen?s book on the Peloponnesian War. Are you politically active? If so, for which party? Are you a CA native? If memory serves me you are in Sacramento and work security??? What would you do if you were ?Emperor for the day??

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Strangelove RE:Starship Troopers - Neofascist or not? 6/5/2004 4:14:08 AM

The reviews you read were likely influenced by a casual interpretation of what fascism is. Consider what you wrote: "This is quite the opposite of the fascist paradigm, so full of military and para-military propaganda, pomp and spectacle." STroopers is loaded with a deep respect of military training and discipline. This combined with the scenario where the democratic franchise is earned through military service may lead some readers to interpret Heinlein's world to be similar to Soviet Russia's Communist Party, Nazi Germany, or Hussein's Iraq and Ba'ath party. In this case the ruling party would be the military. My reading of Heinlein was that military service was only one means of establishing citizenship, but I can not recall him actually mentioning others. Frankly, I am opposed to such ideas, even if they have merit. My concern would be that in order to become a citizen and vote one would have to pass a 'citizenship test' which could very easily mimic the form and function of the 'literacy tests' which post-Reconstruction Southerners used to prevent blacks from voting. By shaping what qualifies to become a citizen, politicians could socially engineer (socially gerrymander) the electorate in a manner most pleasing to them. P.S. Starship Troopers is on the Commandant's Reading List for enlisted Marines, and is the second book on that list after Rifleman Dodd. The two books could not be more different.

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mike_golf RE:Starship Troopers - Neofascist or not? 6/5/2004 9:48:07 PM

Hi Strangelove, Earning citizenship in ST required 2 years of "Federal Service". It was made clear that Federal Service included service in the traditional military but also civil service of many sorts. I'm neither opposed nor in favor of schemes to qualify for citizenship. I see merit to both sides of the question. In today's age of mass democracy, the lowest common denominator and any warm body being able to vote I can see a lot of merit in schemes to attempt to determine which people will be responsible citizens. The Commandant is pretty smart if he puts ST on his reading list! Not bad for a jarhead :-).

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mike_golf RE: Mike_Golf - x_marine 6/5/2004 10:14:12 PM

We are definitely the same generation, I was born in 1958. Sadly, my children barely knew my grandparents, but happily they know my parents fairly well. My father is a three war veteran, WW2, Korea and Vietnam, a member of the greatest generation. My mother and her family were migrant workers during the Great Depression after their farm was lost to the droughts that caused "The Dustbowl". They lived in a truck for two years until they could save enough money to buy a dairy farm in the Central Valley of California. I was born in Sacramento, CA while my father was deployed on the Korean DMZ, my father later retired here in 1973. I joined the army in 1976 and served for 20 years, retiring to Sacramento as well. I earned a history degree in the Army, and a Master's in business after I retired. I sort of stumbled into information security while pursuing my Master's, everything clicked right and here I am, chief security officer of a medium sized business. x_marine wrote: "I understand your use of the term empire but, nevertheless, gag when I hear it." The truth is, we are already an oligarchy with the trappings of mass democracy. The Republic is dead. I think if we are honest with ourselves we will realize this is true. Certainly the majority of the potential electorate realizes it with their apathy towards the electoral process. The Moon is a Harsh Mistress is a political manifesto disguised as entertaining fiction with a bunch of hard science fiction scattered throughout. I think a poli sci major would enjoy it. I'm watching Reagan's 1964 speech supporting Goldwater on C-SPAN right now. What an awesome speech that was. Although we knew it was coming, it is the end of an era today, with President Reagan's death. Where now is the leader who remembers a time when government was not part of our life day in and day out? Where is the leader who can be the catalyst to the nation that Reagan was? Bush has done many things that needed to be done, but where is the communication, charisma and leadership needed? The kind that FDR or JFK or Ronald Reagan brought to the table. That is the thing that has been missing in this test of our nation. If I was emperor for a day? The single biggest change I would make is to stop "legislation from the bench". The judiciary, from the Supreme Court on down, is not here to decide what the words of the constitution should have meant, nor to make changes to the law because they should be made. They are here to rule on the law as it exists. That single thing is the worst thing to happen to this country, the tyranny of the judicial bench.

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oregon_x_marine RE: Mike _Golf 6/6/2004 1:31:14 AM

You?re the man! I completely agree with you regarding the ?imperial judiciary.? Out of control judges, who are overwhelming leftist, are a clear and present danger. What makes me so pessimistic is that no one cares when judges start literally inventing law (the gay marriage issue is a perfect example and another example of why I fear our democracy is terminal. People don?t care that the court is usurping their power). I?ve read Judge Bork?s book ?The Tempting of America ? The Political Seduction of the Law,? and it made my blood boil. Time to lock and load on judges. Your Father: Give me a brief bio on his military service: which branch, which MOS, which campaigns, his rank, was he a lifer? American Empire Elaborate on why you believe an oligarchy runs the country. Who is the ?oligarchy?? I know special interest groups are too influential but haven?t really though the issue through. The ?democratic? reforms ushered in by the Frasier - (George) McGovern commission in the aftermath of the 1968 Democratic Convention (i.e. riots by punks) changed this nation from a representative democracy to a special interest democracy. My solution: term-limits (12 years max in House or Senate), no out of district campaign money, no money from PACS or unions, no primaries, no limit on campaign contributions, total transparency of campaign finances, double the number in the House of Representative, federal balanced budget amendment with line item veto. No problem!!! Your Education: Did you receive your degree from the U. of Maryland? What era did you concentrate in? Where did you get your MBA? I know I?ve asked you this before, but please indulge me. Reagan: Death of an era. R.I.P. I think McCain is a stronger leader the W. Bush, but McCain blew it when he and Warren Rudman compared Pat Robertson and Falwell to Al Sharpton and Louis Farrakhan. I?m not a huge fan of either Roberson or Falwell, but it said a lot about McCain and Rudman that they would make such a comparison. McCain & co. should have shut their mouths because of large number of Republican primary voters ? well, me ? hate Sharpton and Farrakhan!! Robertson and Fallwell are a lot of things, but slanderers (against the police, no less) they are not! What sealed McCain?s fate for me was his support for both the Tobacco Settlement, which has to be the largest shakedown in the history of humanity, and campaign finance reform, which is a horrible infringement of political speech, Supreme Court judgment be damned. Living in California: Given our shared worldviews, I just wonder how you can stand living in California, political home to Nancy Pelosi, Diane Feinstein, Pete Stark, Henry Waxman, Ron Dellums, etc. I live in Portland and feel as if I?m living in ?occupied territory? and will definitely move to a sunnier climate primarily populated by non-muslim conservatives! Emperor for a Day: I would have to revive federalism in a serious manner. The commies, pinko, tree huggers and the anti-christ can populate a state and change its character so long as people can choose to live elsewhere. What makes our situation so intolerable is that the left is ramming its vision down everyone?s throat via judges.

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Warhammer RE:Starship Troopers 2 6/6/2004 1:54:07 AM

Yeah, I know when it was published. 1959 back when WW2 was still fresh in the memories of much of the world, especially heinlein. Didn't say he was writing a commentary on it, just that it influenced his work.

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oregon_x_marine RE: Mike _Golf 6/6/2004 4:33:38 PM

Given your mother is from Oklahoma, I must share this piece of WW2 humor. One day Okie, Arkie and Tex were debating who had won the war. Arkies bragged that they defeated Hitler and Tex bragged that they defeated Tojo. Finally Okie pipes up and says, "Hell, that's nothing. Us Okies took California without losing a single man!"

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