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Subject: Starship Troopers - Neofascist or not?
mike_golf    1/18/2004 9:24:18 PM
Okay, I've read two different pieces that categorized the political scenario in Robert Heinlein's "Starship Troopers" as fascist or neofascist. I've just got to hope they are saying this because they saw the movie, but didn't read the book. While I don't necessarily agree with the concept of earning your citizenship by military service (although I don't fully disagree either) that doesn't make it fascist. In fact, it is made quite clear throughout the book that those who are not citizens hold the military in contempt for the most part and don't value the franchise to vote highly at all. This is quite the opposite of the fascist paradigm, so full of military and para-military propaganda, pomp and spectacle. In a fascist country everyone can vote, but the person they will vote for is pre-determined. Often it is their only choice. I think that Heinlein used the government as a tool to point out some of the flaws in our current government in the US. Heinlein was heavily influenced by Ayn Rand and by precepts of Libertarianism (Originally called Liberalism before Liberal came to be synonymous with social democracy) and was extremely unlikely to ever advocate anything as authoritarian as a fascist government.

So, if you think that the government in "Starship Troopers" is fascist because you saw the movie, read the book. It will dramatically open your eyes to what Heinlein was really getting at. If you think it's fascist and you have read the book, well I just don't understand what you consider fascist.
 
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mike_golf    RE:Starship Troopers - Neofascist or not?   6/5/2004 9:48:07 PM
Hi Strangelove, Earning citizenship in ST required 2 years of "Federal Service". It was made clear that Federal Service included service in the traditional military but also civil service of many sorts. I'm neither opposed nor in favor of schemes to qualify for citizenship. I see merit to both sides of the question. In today's age of mass democracy, the lowest common denominator and any warm body being able to vote I can see a lot of merit in schemes to attempt to determine which people will be responsible citizens. The Commandant is pretty smart if he puts ST on his reading list! Not bad for a jarhead :-).
 
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mike_golf    RE: Mike_Golf - x_marine   6/5/2004 10:14:12 PM
We are definitely the same generation, I was born in 1958. Sadly, my children barely knew my grandparents, but happily they know my parents fairly well. My father is a three war veteran, WW2, Korea and Vietnam, a member of the greatest generation. My mother and her family were migrant workers during the Great Depression after their farm was lost to the droughts that caused "The Dustbowl". They lived in a truck for two years until they could save enough money to buy a dairy farm in the Central Valley of California. I was born in Sacramento, CA while my father was deployed on the Korean DMZ, my father later retired here in 1973. I joined the army in 1976 and served for 20 years, retiring to Sacramento as well. I earned a history degree in the Army, and a Master's in business after I retired. I sort of stumbled into information security while pursuing my Master's, everything clicked right and here I am, chief security officer of a medium sized business. x_marine wrote: "I understand your use of the term empire but, nevertheless, gag when I hear it." The truth is, we are already an oligarchy with the trappings of mass democracy. The Republic is dead. I think if we are honest with ourselves we will realize this is true. Certainly the majority of the potential electorate realizes it with their apathy towards the electoral process. The Moon is a Harsh Mistress is a political manifesto disguised as entertaining fiction with a bunch of hard science fiction scattered throughout. I think a poli sci major would enjoy it. I'm watching Reagan's 1964 speech supporting Goldwater on C-SPAN right now. What an awesome speech that was. Although we knew it was coming, it is the end of an era today, with President Reagan's death. Where now is the leader who remembers a time when government was not part of our life day in and day out? Where is the leader who can be the catalyst to the nation that Reagan was? Bush has done many things that needed to be done, but where is the communication, charisma and leadership needed? The kind that FDR or JFK or Ronald Reagan brought to the table. That is the thing that has been missing in this test of our nation. If I was emperor for a day? The single biggest change I would make is to stop "legislation from the bench". The judiciary, from the Supreme Court on down, is not here to decide what the words of the constitution should have meant, nor to make changes to the law because they should be made. They are here to rule on the law as it exists. That single thing is the worst thing to happen to this country, the tyranny of the judicial bench.
 
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oregon_x_marine    RE: Mike _Golf   6/6/2004 1:31:14 AM
You?re the man! I completely agree with you regarding the ?imperial judiciary.? Out of control judges, who are overwhelming leftist, are a clear and present danger. What makes me so pessimistic is that no one cares when judges start literally inventing law (the gay marriage issue is a perfect example and another example of why I fear our democracy is terminal. People don?t care that the court is usurping their power). I?ve read Judge Bork?s book ?The Tempting of America ? The Political Seduction of the Law,? and it made my blood boil. Time to lock and load on judges. Your Father: Give me a brief bio on his military service: which branch, which MOS, which campaigns, his rank, was he a lifer? American Empire Elaborate on why you believe an oligarchy runs the country. Who is the ?oligarchy?? I know special interest groups are too influential but haven?t really though the issue through. The ?democratic? reforms ushered in by the Frasier - (George) McGovern commission in the aftermath of the 1968 Democratic Convention (i.e. riots by punks) changed this nation from a representative democracy to a special interest democracy. My solution: term-limits (12 years max in House or Senate), no out of district campaign money, no money from PACS or unions, no primaries, no limit on campaign contributions, total transparency of campaign finances, double the number in the House of Representative, federal balanced budget amendment with line item veto. No problem!!! Your Education: Did you receive your degree from the U. of Maryland? What era did you concentrate in? Where did you get your MBA? I know I?ve asked you this before, but please indulge me. Reagan: Death of an era. R.I.P. I think McCain is a stronger leader the W. Bush, but McCain blew it when he and Warren Rudman compared Pat Robertson and Falwell to Al Sharpton and Louis Farrakhan. I?m not a huge fan of either Roberson or Falwell, but it said a lot about McCain and Rudman that they would make such a comparison. McCain & co. should have shut their mouths because of large number of Republican primary voters ? well, me ? hate Sharpton and Farrakhan!! Robertson and Fallwell are a lot of things, but slanderers (against the police, no less) they are not! What sealed McCain?s fate for me was his support for both the Tobacco Settlement, which has to be the largest shakedown in the history of humanity, and campaign finance reform, which is a horrible infringement of political speech, Supreme Court judgment be damned. Living in California: Given our shared worldviews, I just wonder how you can stand living in California, political home to Nancy Pelosi, Diane Feinstein, Pete Stark, Henry Waxman, Ron Dellums, etc. I live in Portland and feel as if I?m living in ?occupied territory? and will definitely move to a sunnier climate primarily populated by non-muslim conservatives! Emperor for a Day: I would have to revive federalism in a serious manner. The commies, pinko, tree huggers and the anti-christ can populate a state and change its character so long as people can choose to live elsewhere. What makes our situation so intolerable is that the left is ramming its vision down everyone?s throat via judges.
 
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Warhammer    RE:Starship Troopers 2   6/6/2004 1:54:07 AM
Yeah, I know when it was published. 1959 back when WW2 was still fresh in the memories of much of the world, especially heinlein. Didn't say he was writing a commentary on it, just that it influenced his work.
 
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oregon_x_marine    RE: Mike _Golf   6/6/2004 4:33:38 PM
Given your mother is from Oklahoma, I must share this piece of WW2 humor. One day Okie, Arkie and Tex were debating who had won the war. Arkies bragged that they defeated Hitler and Tex bragged that they defeated Tojo. Finally Okie pipes up and says, "Hell, that's nothing. Us Okies took California without losing a single man!"
 
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mike_golf    RE: Mike _Golf   6/6/2004 4:50:32 PM
Damn, now I have to clean the coffee off my laptop! That's pretty good, I'll have to tell her. I had been meaning to get back to your questions, I just wasn't sure how much detail to give. Dad was drafted in early 41, served as a combat engineer in France, finished the war as a first sergeant. Got out in 45 like many others, went back in the Army in 49. He served in Korea from the breakout from Pusan onwards with 2nd ID. He served tours in Germany, Korea and Fort Bragg before going to Vietnam in 1965 and again in 1968. He retired as a sergeant major. I got my BA from Seattle City University, my concentration was in modern western history, 1929 to the present. I got my MBA at UC, Davis. Politically speaking California is extremely trying, but I must say the electorate is moving back to the center, as evidenced by the election of Schwarzenegger and the extremely low approval rating the legislature currently has. I love the state though, the people, the climate, the ocean and the mountains so close by. And the availability of jobs is hard to argue with, in my industry anyhow. Well, federalism was an excellent attempt by Jefferson, Hamilton, et. al. to try to prevent the tyranny of the majority. I wouldn't mind seeing more state's rights, less central government power myself. But, I think we can trace the decline of federalism to two things. The first is the Civil War, Lincoln had to make the central government powerful to win. The second is the rise, post 1900, of a "legislative judiciary". They had to establish the central government as supreme to enable their legislative activities.
 
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oregon_x_marine    RE: Mike _Golf   6/6/2004 5:50:27 PM
Was your father a combat engineer his entire career? My uncle's were Marines and fought at Gaudalcanal, Tarawa, Okinawa, and one was later recalled for Korea (Inchon, Chosin). Seattle City University? I lived in Seattle from 1988-1993 and am not familiar with that institution. Is it affiliated with another university in Seattle. UC-Davis grad school; well done! I tend to think of California as a lost paradise. It guess it's inevitable when 40 million people move to one state. I would probably move there if I could afford to live in the nicer areas! I think Federalism has a real chance now for the simple fact that the overwhelming majority do not wish to split the nation. I think the average person can now easily see how a bloated and over-centralized Federal government is making things worse, not better. Didn't you post in another section that the Army's Armored and Mech divisions are actually "old-school" versions of heavy cavalry and dragoons? After reading that post I did a little research on British regiments and found these two interesting web sites: link link You have to find some time to give me your opinion of the British regimental system and whether it should be adopted in America.
 
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mike_golf    RE: Mike _Golf   6/6/2004 8:59:10 PM
Hey x_marine, Dad was a combat engineer and infantry. Probably other things too. The military was much looser for NCO's back then, they tended to move around job to job as needed a lot more. I'm pretty sure that Seattle City University is affiliated with City University, which is in New York? I did most of my coursework through U of Maryland, like most soldiers. But I was at Ft Lewis long enough to take the credits I needed through them. About regiments. I spent 12 years in two armored cavalry regiments. The Cav used to work that way, all of the NCO's knew each other. It was fairly similar to the regimental system of the British. I thought the US Army should have really adopted a Regimental system years ago.
 
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oregon_x_marine    RE: Mike _Golf   6/6/2004 11:05:32 PM
Dunnigan suggested that the new brigades will be the basis for a "regimental system." Do you think it should be the BDE or RGT, whith different BN serving in differt locations? I know you're a working man (I've been unemployed since last year) and appreciate all of your answers.
 
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chemist    RE: Mike _Golf   6/7/2004 12:40:30 AM
MG, Your the third UCD alumn I've found on the boards. WTH? Did my undergrad work there. Interesting place and growing wierder by the minute. Sacto wasn't my favorite place in the world(hey sitting atop the central valley isn't all that fun. Delta breezes or no delta breezes.). Plus traffic could down right suck, especially since I wasn't a native and didn't know which streets were one way and how they split. Query that's on topic: Is it possible that Heinlein in both Moon is a Harsh Mistress and Starship Troopers is harkening back to the Athenians and the requirement of civic militarism for a vote? I don't see civic militarism as fascistic. It's just an odd requirement for participation in politics by todays standards. Okay, berate me for being silly..
 
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mike_golf    RE: Mike _Golf - chemist   6/7/2004 1:50:49 AM
I'm not surprised there's a bunch of UCD alums on the board. Nice to meet a fellow CalAggie. Great school, weird town, kinda like Berkeley II basically. I think Heinlein was definitely including Classic Greek political concepts in his books. He was very influenced by the Greeks, much as Pournelle is very influenced by the Romans.
 
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oregon_x_marine    RE: Greeks   6/7/2004 2:26:42 AM
I've started reading Donald Kagan's book on the Pelopenessian War, and to say that the differences between Sparta and Athens are fascinating would be an gross understatement. Athens had universal male sufferage and would literally vote on all important matters, including war. Their rationale was simple; a man ought to have a say whether he goes to war. There were 40,000 Athenian men who were eligible to vote in the assembly, but usually 2-3,000 showed up. Some things never change! On the other hand, Sparta had a mixed constitution - an interesting aside is that the Founding Fathers were very influenced by Sparta although one always reads about Athens' influence on the USA - where all Spartans (the highest caste in Spartan soceity) were members of a mostly powerless assembly (although the assembly had final say on war issues). The Spartan assembly also elected Ephors (magistrates), and he upper class was represented in a special body. Even more interesting was that there were 2 kings who served simultaneously! Pay attention here because there will be a quiz when I finsh the book!!!
 
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Strangelove    RE: Mike _Golf (you say you want a revolution?)   6/7/2004 3:19:52 AM
Mike_Golf: I am largely in agreemtent with your comments: "My solution: term-limits (12 years max in House or Senate), no out of district campaign money, no money from PACS or unions, no primaries, no limit on campaign contributions, total transparency of campaign finances, double the number in the House of Representative, federal balanced budget amendment with line item veto." I feel that the re-election process encourages corruption. Reps (be they senators, presidents, or members of the house) spend much of their careers in politics looking for money. Obviously the people who give them the money expect something in return, and there is really no way around this. What about ONE term in office, which disqualifies a person for ANY federal office for a period of time? In a similar vein, Jefferson called for a revolution every 20 or 25 years in order to maintain liberty. What if we did just that? Every 25 years, starting in 2025, if you are in office, you may fill out your term, and then disqualified from seeking another term for a period of time?
 
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Strangelove    RE: Greeks   6/7/2004 3:31:35 AM
An interesting and largely unknown fact about Athenian democracy was that the money which funded the government and public works projects, like the Parthenon, came from the looting of a treasury established to protect the various city-states in event of another invasion by the Persians. The Athenians managed to politically wrangle moving the Delian League's treasury to Athens, where they spent it to establish and equip their own military, and then proceeded to use that military to continue to extort money from the founding members. The democratic foundations of our modern western tradition leave something to be desired, but frankly shouldn't surprise anyone given the level of corruption and graft which pervades our (and every, as far as I know) government.
 
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ilpars    Athenians   6/7/2004 3:57:30 AM
"There were 40,000 Athenian men who were eligible to vote in the assembly, but usually 2-3,000 showed up. Some things never change!" This is true for the Imperalist period of Athens. At that period many citizens lived at colonies and could not find time to go to Athens to vote. At the time of Marathon battle (490 B.C.), there were only 10,000 citizens. And all were present at when there is an important matter to discuss. Such as what to do against Persian army landing at Marathon. In the end most of the citizens took arms. The citizens who are not able to serve in war armed a slave in its place. So there were aproximately 10,000 Athenian soldiers at Marathon. And about several hundred Plateans (great accomplishment and bravery from such a small city). Persians were not much numereous. Probably 15,000 but 12,000 of them were professional soldiers. What makes the Marathon Battle so important in history is it is a victory by a militia army against a veteran regular army. Hmm. If Starship Troopers affected by Athenian history, than Persians are the aliens.
 
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