Military History | How To Make War | Wars Around the World Rules of Use How to Behave on an Internet Forum
Military Science Fiction Discussion Board
Sign In   Return to Topic Page
Subject: Starship Troopers - Neofascist or not?
mike_golf    1/18/2004 9:24:18 PM
Okay, I've read two different pieces that categorized the political scenario in Robert Heinlein's "Starship Troopers" as fascist or neofascist. I've just got to hope they are saying this because they saw the movie, but didn't read the book. While I don't necessarily agree with the concept of earning your citizenship by military service (although I don't fully disagree either) that doesn't make it fascist. In fact, it is made quite clear throughout the book that those who are not citizens hold the military in contempt for the most part and don't value the franchise to vote highly at all. This is quite the opposite of the fascist paradigm, so full of military and para-military propaganda, pomp and spectacle. In a fascist country everyone can vote, but the person they will vote for is pre-determined. Often it is their only choice. I think that Heinlein used the government as a tool to point out some of the flaws in our current government in the US. Heinlein was heavily influenced by Ayn Rand and by precepts of Libertarianism (Originally called Liberalism before Liberal came to be synonymous with social democracy) and was extremely unlikely to ever advocate anything as authoritarian as a fascist government. So, if you think that the government in "Starship Troopers" is fascist because you saw the movie, read the book. It will dramatically open your eyes to what Heinlein was really getting at. If you think it's fascist and you have read the book, well I just don't understand what you consider fascist.
 
Quote    Reply

Email Me When A New Comment Is Made
Show Only Poster Name and Title     Newest to Oldest
Pages: PREV  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16   NEXT
mike_golf    RE:Starship Troopers - the bugs   3/16/2004 9:30:42 PM
Achtung, The Federation never resorts to conscription in the book. One of the key themes in the book is that conscription is immoral in a free society.
 
Quote    Reply

mike_golf    RE:Starship Troopers - the bugs   3/16/2004 9:31:16 PM
Heh, can you tell I'm a Libertarian whose politics were strongly shaped by Robert A. Heinlein's work?
 
Quote    Reply

AlbanyRifles    If This Goes On   3/17/2004 8:30:04 AM
I believe Heinlein Libertarianism is really shown in his 1941 novella "If This Goes On". The fight by a former soldier against the religious central goverment definetley shows a bent against a strong central government of any stripe.
 
Quote    Reply

AlbanyRifles    If This Goes On   3/17/2004 8:30:06 AM
I believe Heinlein Libertarianism is really shown in his 1941 novella "If This Goes On". The fight by a former soldier against the religious central goverment definetley shows a bent against a strong central government of any stripe.
 
Quote    Reply

AlbanyRifles    RE:Starship Troopers - 1984   3/17/2004 8:43:31 AM
Mike Golf Okay, as far as conscripted armies and the attitudes of the COMINTERN, how do you compare ST to 1984? (Show examples; speeling counts.) :-) And as for your post on officers and sergeants; should be required reading for all current and future officers and NCOs.
 
Quote    Reply

mike_golf    RE:Starship Troopers - 1984   3/17/2004 6:05:00 PM
AlbanyRifles said "Okay, as far as conscripted armies and the attitudes of the COMINTERN, how do you compare ST to 1984? (Show examples; speeling counts.) :-)" Wow, I wasn't expecting an essay assignment! Hmmmm, it's been a long time since I read 1984. I think I would have to reread it to comment accurately. My gut instinct is that 1984 is pre final conflict and ST is post final conflict. The fact that the world was split into two or three alliances that fought a war leading to the breakdown of society is made explicitly clear in ST. That societal breakdown is what enabled the rise of the Federation where citizenship is only granted to those who have served in the armed forces, later expanded to all federal services (except the Merchant Marine, even RAH had his prejudices). Albany said "And as for your post on officers and sergeants; should be required reading for all current and future officers and NCOs" Thanks!
 
Quote    Reply

mike_golf    RE:If This Goes On - The Moon is a Harsh Mistress   3/17/2004 6:08:09 PM
Yep, that novella, but even more strongly in "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress". He first describes to us a governmental setup where the citizens basically completely govern themselves without need of police, courts, etc. from the government. Then he gives us a series of ideas for how to make that minimum of government work better. And finally he gives us the pessimistic view that his utopia can't last because deep down we all want to tell our neighbor what to do. Besides that, the war fought between Luna and Earth is pretty awesome.
 
Quote    Reply

wkwillis    RE:If This Goes On - The Moon is a Harsh Mistress   4/7/2004 11:06:40 AM
I thought that 'Starship Troopers' was Leninist. After all, you earn your right to vote by participating in government, whether collecting the trash (99%) or combat operations (1%, some of the time). Isn't this self selection method that the Russians thought would give them good government, when they set it up in 1917 through 1921? It didn't work for them because the right to vote caused the party voters to purge themselves (and people who didn't pay their taxes like the Ukrainian farmers) in faction fights over spoils. The right to vote migrated up the party ranks to the Nomenklatura when party members became afraid to vote and the whole thing degenerated into a kleptocracy. That's pretty much what happened in China, too. Heinlein appears to be relying on morality to keep this in check.
 
Quote    Reply

mike_golf    RE:If This Goes On - The Moon is a Harsh Mistress   4/7/2004 12:00:41 PM
Wow, if there is one thing I don't think anyone ever accused Heinlein of before it is being Leninist or Communist. No, I don't see it as Leninist. He did advocate, in that book and many others, some method of determining citizenship and the voting franchise other than one warm adult body equals one vote. But he balanced the typical elite issues of that off with other checks and balances to ensure that it wouldn't fall into the traps of the USSR and PRC.
 
Quote    Reply

blacksmith    Back to Troopers   5/13/2004 12:44:05 AM
I was raised in a society that enfranchised people based on the adult warm body criteria (adult warm/cold body in Chicago). More and more I hear about movements to enfranchise illegal aliens. ('scuse me. Did the operative word of that status escape somebody?) Now there's a movement in California (were else) to lower the voting age to 14. (eliminates the 'adult' part of the voting criteria). I assume it is only a matter of time before PETA (People for Ethical Treatment of Animals) will want to follow the Emporer Caligula's lead and put a horse in the Senate. (hmm. Might be an improvement to have the whole horse 'stead of just the hindquarters). If five year olds can vote, just what is a vote worth? Does universal franchise, rather than increase democracy, really just dilute it until it doesn't matter anymore? Most people know the value of something that is given but not earned. I read ST over 30 year ago and many times I've pondered Heinlein's vision. What a novel idea that voting is actually so important that the right to do it should be earned... Of course this is always followed by a vision of me trying to earn that right now (too old, too fat and probably too dumb).
 
Quote    Reply
PREV  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16   NEXT



StrategyWorld.com© 1998 - 2012StrategyWorld.com. All rights Reserved. StrategyWorld.com, StrategyPage.com, FYEO, For Your Eyes Only and Al Nofi's CIC are all trademarks of StrategyWorld.com Privacy Policy